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File: 1608528375091.jpg ( 101.2 KB , 1200x1114 , who shills the USSR.jpg )

 No.4210[Reply]

Since /leftypol/ is downright autistic at times I decided to make a Debunk thread where anticommunist arguments are presented with their debunks by users.
70 posts and 25 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.
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 No.7521

>>7520
>but probably less so in the Soviet Case.
Capitalism has a mechanism of competition to drive prices to SNLT.

What mechanism did your vanguardoid shit had?

>In capitalism GDP

All that can be accounted for

You can just take FIRE out

While in Soviet case you need to fucking look at energy consumption and shit to even get a rough estimate of output lol

>Calculated prices in socialist centrally planned economies generally are better a tracking rational resource allocation optimums.

Maybe in your imagination lol. In ACTUALLY EXISTING SOYCIALISM nobody even had ANY IDEA in what range SNLT was lol.
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 No.7522

>>7521
The Soviets lacked the computer resources to fully plan their economy, they still had to rely on partial markets.

Sufficient computer resources exist now, it's possible to make the planning system calculate the prices you would get from a perfect competition, without any market distortions from monopolies.

You only need the consumer feed-back to know whether people want a given product for a given price.

Markets lack a signalling feature for consumers to signal that they want a product that nobody is making yet. I don't know whether that can be added to markets, but for a socialist planning system, it's very easy to add this because there already is a polling system for surplus allocation priority, that makes it trivial.

Many other economic aspects will become easier too, you'll be able to establish new workplace simply by convincing workers to start contributing labor-inputs. That'll be much simpler than the complicated ways of starting a business.

The purpose of the vanguard will only be to bootstrap sortition democracy and socialist cybernetic planning, they won't have to make political and economic decisions. After the system runs it will reproduce it self. You won't need heavy handed political repression to keep it going, civil society will be able to defend this effortlessly.
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 No.7567

If you're trying to convince anyone of socialism being right, "debunking" is a shitty way to go about it. It's a disgusting turbolib habit which always assumes imperious institutional authority to tell you what facts are, without any judgement or independent verification. Against shameless liars, they don't care if you debunk them, because their arguments are not intended to appeal to anything rational. They will invent new lies, and the truth is always irrelevant. The way to stop the shameless liars is to expose the full extent of their depravity and failure as human beings, rather than this habitual "snark" that is an extreme faggotry.

That said, debunking anticommunist arguments is kind of pointless because the communists debunked themselves by failing to make clear - or seeming not to know - what communism stood for. This is mostly because, after all of the posturing, the USSR and USA were far more similar than they were made out to be in the grand narrative theory of history. The Russians and those in their orbit identified communism with technology and their conception of mass politics. It was responsive enough to public demand compared to the old way where the rulers were openly democidal and slaughtered peasants without regard. The Tsars were a monstrous regime given this strange PR by anticommunist fags, and they are fags. Communism failed from within, and many of the anticommunist talking points came direct from the former Soviet Union and ideologues, whose objective was power more than anything good. Of course, all of the people in the USSR who wanted something decent out of it - and that tends to be most people who have an obvious self-interest in not letting this faggotry take over everything - were left holding the bag so that a few thieves could mock them. Most of the anticommunist arguments to "debunk" the USSR could just as well be used to dismantle the US so that the same thieves - sometimes the exact same thieves that plundered the former USSR - can do the same to the next large country, then the next, and so on. Nazis do not need to be creative, and that's what they are - goose stepping, motherfucking fags who have a fetish for this shit.

If you want an argument against "capitalist idealism", it's better to not even regard their facile arguments against communism, and attack capitalism on its own terms. Since the anticommunist retards don't have any core, and are perfectly happy to cannibalize capital to feed their thiPost too long. Click here to view the full text.
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 No.7568

>>7522
So I might try some of these arguments, since Cockshott Gang is at it again.

I'll tell you why cybernetic planning was scrapped in the USSR - because the plan of the higher ups knew that the same thing was being done globally, and there was no further use for duplicating effort. The new economic plan called for eliminating most of humanity, who were useless to their preferred forms of society. After Khrushchev, all the upper rungs of the Soviet system thought about was how to sell out and get out while the getting was good, and then you had the scientists who wanted to be fed goodies forever and pissed on those who weren't worthy in their view. There's no "planning" that gets around that basic imperative that the classes that mattered followed, that the philosophies given to them insisted was natural and normal. When you uphold an amoral view of history and what we do, you're going to get the expected result. Gee, no one saw ZAT coming, right?

No one is ignorant of what the people want. The people, if they believe speaking of what they want is at all safe and not likely to get them killed, will tell you what they want, and have been willing to say this without too much prodding or effort. The rulers and favored classes never ever want to give the people what they wanted, because what the people wanted was security - which means they would hold a share of wealth, no questions asked or insinuations made. That would be the first condition before anything else is considered. Once the people have what they wanted out of it, they have no reason to regard the state or "society in the abstract" as something worth their efforts. Sure, there is a basic level of decency that allows society to exist, but beyond that, people want security. The Soviet system provided some level of that for enough people, and those who had no security were never going to be allowed that ever again. The Marxist view of humanity was just one of many views among higher society that held humanity in contempt and treated the lower orders accordingly. That's entirely on their own terms, and that spoke to the interests of the middle class generally. Everyone who lived through the USSR, and people who were alive then will tell you this, would tell you that the ideology and "the system" was rife with opportunism, rather than the source of good. The people who boost the system make abuPost too long. Click here to view the full text.
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 No.7569

The market is not a planning mechanism and never was. Firms must plan their behavior in the same way a home-maker plans her expenditures. They do not actually believe the world is ruled by abstractions - and then believe that narratives far removed from the original abstraction actually has causative power in this spooky, Germanic way. The planning of a firm is not the same as a home, because firms have very different imperatives they meet. Large firms that hold monopolies have different imperatives from an imagined firm in "ideal capitalism", and this has long been known. Those are always prevalent over any ideological conceit about "the system", as if systems operated through spooky action.

All of this relies on portraying the USSR as this strange ideological unicorn "totally against the natural order", rather than what it actually was - a country modernizing much like the United States in the same time, doing so in very different conditions. The capitalists or what counted as such in the USSR were told they had to do business through the Party and the state, and this was seen as perfectly reasonable to those who stayed behind. Since the Party has its own imperatives - and they were the imperatives of the Party rather than "the state" in the abstract as Germanism insists - business was for a time subdued because the society was oriented towards aims it deemed necessary and useful. The idea wasn't to micromanage everyone's lives through GOSPLAN into eternity, and say this is immaculate "perfect information in perfect systems" - another Germanic perversion of sense. Planning through the Party and bureaucracy was a lot more effective for a lot more people than this idiocy that is done now. If you look at the USA between 1940 and 1970, the interested parties were some imagined executives in top hats or doing cocaine fueled orgies and scams. They were assholes in suits and intel ghouls who knew exactly what they wanted, and laugh at how easy it was to cajole retards into thinking they had a choice in any of this. The US was so big and didn't have its industry wrecked by Nazi invasion that it could tolerate a level of "market anarchy" - and this was largely the large middle class holding on to what they already held, rather than the market generating anything. Capital by that time had been exposed as a wholly unproductive "system" that was so ruinous that FDR had to work extra hard to get these people out of their own way just so he could helm this bePost too long. Click here to view the full text.


File: 1705170512636.png ( 353.66 KB , 680x373 , socialist_albania_meme.png )

 No.7479[Reply]

In Socialist Albania:

Increased life expectancy 11 months every year

First country in the world to achieve complete electrification

Death rate 37% lower than European average

Quadrupled doctors per capita in 18 years

Population growth 3.5 times higher than European average

(Further reading: https://etheses.lse.ac.uk/2870/1/U615819.pdf)
22 posts and 11 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.
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 No.7507

>>7502
fatalism is stupid

>>7503
The feudal monarchical structures in pre-revolutionairy Russia never stood a chance, they were 100 years behind on industrial development. If there hadn't been a communist revolution, there might have been a bourgeois revolution which probably would have been a lot more destructive. Or possible an imperial occupation by a more powerful capitalist country, which would also have been a brutal affair.

The dissolution of the Soviet system wasn't inevitable, that system could have been reformed. Even a regression to capitalism could have been done without neo-liberal shock doctrine killing millions.

So no, your comparison doesn't track.
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 No.7508

>>7505
>so "most MLs" are not vanguardists anymore?
Vanguardism never was a end in it self, it was a means to keep opportunistic sell-outs from hijacking political power to enrich them selves at the expense of wrecking the socialist project.
Since we now have the ability to achieve the same thing with other much more pleasant means, like sortition and democratic polling, we use those. If you want you still can have a vanguard that bootstraps these other means.

>I really can't wrap my head around how you retards are gonna square the circle that direct democracy is ANTITHETICAL to political party as an ORGANIZATIONAL FORM

The goal is to build a socialist society that operates a socialist mode of production, the political party is just a means to that end. If there's a better way we'll use that.
>Lenin would've shot you if you told him party form is gotta go
Probably, but in the early 20th century the communication technology couldn't have facilitated democratic polling, so there was no alternative to the "party form". State-of-the-art technology of that time were telegraph machines.
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 No.7509

File: 1705456500081.mp4 ( 5.7 MB , 640x272 , Courier 1986.mp4 )

>>7505
>who thought USSR required a political revolution to fully complete its transition to socialism
which, if you really think about it, is beyond ironic: Real Existing Socialism was far more threatened by the real proletarian uprising than capitalism ever was lol (solidarity fucking killed PRL even with the martial law, enormous crowds of proles made SCSE officials shit their pants live on tv, Chechoslovakia descended into fucking chaos lol)

tho I'm not so sure soyciety in vid related is capable of any historically progressive revolution at all (not that capitalist soyciety is capable of any either lol)
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 No.7511

>>7507
>fatalism is stupid
histmat is deterministic (in the sense of irreversible processes)

>If there hadn't been a communist revolution, there might have been a bourgeois revolution which probably would have been a lot more destructive.

there WAS a bourgeois revolution (February revolution) lol

it fucking failed because of ww1

this is fucking BASICS

>that system could have been reformed

could it really, tho? lol

this actually re-poses the old question on a new level: reform or revolution in the Real Existing Soycialism?
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 No.7512

>>7497
>>7498
>It's good but it collapsed
this is equivalent to saying
<It's bad because it collapsed
But that's retarded anon. It didn't collapse because conditions were bad for the average worker. It collapsed because of internal and external political reasons. We should acknowledge their successes and failures and try again but avoiding the failures.


File: 1652571385435.png ( 6.26 KB , 1280x853 , esp.png )

 No.6957[Reply]

Which constructed international language is best?

Esperanto is the most well-known but has many flaws and has no interest in correcting any of them.

Ido is an improved Esperanto but that's like calling it the thinnest kid at fat camp.

Novial is pretty good but it splintered too much towards the end and never recovered.

Occidental isn't bad but it reads like "Novial v0.7".

Interlingua tries hard but it reads like it wants to be all things for all people and winds up being nothing good for anyone.

What's leftchan's take on international languages?
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 No.6958

File: 1652572081629.jpg ( 8.48 KB , 250x209 , 1652317151345.jpg )

I'm a looser burger that only knows one language and part of another language (korean) but I have never actively used it so I lost my ability to speak it really sort of fluently at all.
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 No.6959

>>6957
I'm not sure what you are looking for. You haven't mentioned Lojban, that's also a semi famous constructed language. It tries to be syntactically unambiguous.

>What's leftchan's take on international languages?


here is a list of most commonly spoken organic languages (native and non-native combined)

1. English 1,348 b
2. Mandarin Chinese 1.120 b
3. Hindi 600 m
4. Spanish 543 m
5. Standard Arabic 274 m
6. Bengali 268 m
7. French 267 m
8. Russian 258 m
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
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 No.6960

>>6959
About not listing other conlangs, your point is valid. I could have listed off another 20 or so but didn't want to overburden the initial post.
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 No.7472

>>6959
Yeah I like the reform approach. I try to lump words together in english like german does, because I appreciate the feature. Like carengine for instance
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 No.7473

>>7472
Yes compound words are a nice linguistic feature, just don't overdo it by creating comically long words


File: 1619198851561.jpg ( 12.16 KB , 220x231 , Max_Stirner-k.jpg )

 No.5521[Reply]

Hey Comrades! The ideas of Max Stirner (lived at the time of Marx) somehow appeal to me. As I understood he basically says that morality and religious and social norms are void (called them "spooks"). By freeing oneself of these concepts, one can follow one's own will. By cooperation and mutual interest one can then happily coexist and live with other individuals.
What are your thoughts on that?
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 No.5522

File: 1619201821240.jpg ( 2.21 MB , 2480x3507 , dcb72a28164d7d7484ae86facb….jpg )

You should probably ask >>>/dead/.
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 No.5523

Cool thanks, didn't know this board exists.
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 No.5524

>>5522
/edu/ isn't restricted to marxism only…
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 No.7471

>>5524
It is now. Try and stop us.


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File: 1674789638454-1.png ( 140.61 KB , 1190x2048 , Jain_Prateek_Chihna.svg.png )

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 No.7162[Reply]

still remember this shit from public school(elementary to middle school) where it usually was cut into desks by kids being fuckwits. dont get why/how this is memed so much to make it across pretty much across most of the continents. At least, it pisses off west pests. anyone got any decent insight about this? wikipedia fuckin sucks
57 posts and 49 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.
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 No.7379

File: 1691623112001.png ( 634.4 KB , 854x480 , 923.png )

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 No.7380

File: 1691636076171.png ( 98.19 KB , 1920x1033 , Tuvan People's Republic fl….png )

>>7373
cute…
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 No.7404

File: 1695728997675-0.jpg ( 94.98 KB , 1920x800 , g.jpg )

File: 1695728997675-1.png ( 596.85 KB , 1212x638 , s.png )

>>7380
cuter
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 No.7460

File: 1699655885039-0.png ( 175.76 KB , 312x226 , samurai1.png )

File: 1699655885039-1.png ( 356.91 KB , 511x612 , samurai2.png )

File: 1699655885039-2.png ( 353.18 KB , 536x340 , samurai3.png )

File: 1699655885039-3.png ( 293.52 KB , 589x361 , samurai4.png )

File: 1699655885039-4.png ( 653.44 KB , 447x580 , samurai5.png )

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 No.7462

>>7460
that swastika shaped building in the third picture is a barracks at Naval Base Coronado near San Diego.

https://www.sfgate.com/obscuresf/article/history-of-California-swastika-building-17241331.php


File: 1698235136734-0.png ( 740.4 KB , 859x542 , 5r.png )

File: 1698235136734-1.mp4 ( 15.17 MB , 1280x720 , They Said This Publicly Ab….mp4 )

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File: 1698235136734-3.png ( 169.17 KB , 387x360 , 7y.png )

 No.7407[Reply]

they're out there somewhere…. out in the wild wastes of the north americas and euro trashlands

The West Has Fallen. Billions Must Die
20 posts and 30 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.
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 No.7432

>>7430
And yet here you are, posting from the western capitalist country that won the cold war, from the comfort of your mom's basement, on a phone or computer reliant completely on a capitalist supply chain, and not being gulaged for posturing like an edgy political dissident
<Wow much successful!!!

>I'm so worldly and smart

Do you even have a passport? What was the last book you read that wasn't written by a self professed leftist or communist?

This whole post comes across like a manifest statement of Dunning Kruger syndrome.

Literally every country got materially better off during the 20th century.

The USSR got caught with their pants down when the Nazis invaded and we're reliant on the American lend lease program after that. Had Hitler not been such a schizo retard and didn't invade the Soviet Union in the first place, Stalin would have maintained his literal alliance with Nazi Germany.

>The USSR had tons of freedoms

Ah yes, you could just decide where to live, where you wanted to work, could take a vacation whenever you wanted. /S
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
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 No.7433

>>7430
Also Comrade Dunning Kruger,

You really need to work on establishing a better sleep schedule
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 No.7434

File: 1699205720275.jpg ( 69.34 KB , 897x602 , molotov-ribbentrop pact.jpg )

>>7432
>western capitalism won the first cold war
Yes but it's also loosing the second cold war. Might makes right philosophies are retarded and self defeating in the long term because nobody has superior strength all the time. Ultimately the only thing the cold war proves, is that western capitalism could not compete against Soviet socialism on peaceful terms.

>gulaged

Remember that the US imprisons roughly 5 times as many people as the USSR did, the level of hypocrisy is earth-shattering. If you are complaining about the political repression in the soviet union, that did exist, but you have to consider how utterly brutal the repression against communists was before the revolution. They did not retaliate in kind, if they had done that… It would have been something else.

>a phone or computer reliant completely on a capitalist supply chain

This argument isn't coherent because all the stuff gets made by workers, not the capitalists that own the means of production. But it's still funny because most gadgets have Made in China written on it. So their made by a bunch of workers in a communist country.

>a manifest statement of Dunning Kruger syndrome.

insult =/= argument

>Literally every country got materially better off during the 20th century.

That's probably not entirely true, but even if it was, the meteoric rise of socialist countries that managed to double their life expectancy within one generation during the process of industrialization, is something no capitalist country got even close to realizing.
Post too long. Click here to view the full text.
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 No.7456

File: 1699639202650.png ( 4.5 KB , 565x154 , ai-test.png )

>>7455
canned response
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 No.7457

>>7455
You're AI has an anti-soviet bias and it's doing the Neo-liberal thing where it pretends to not be ideological. Also it has reading comprehension issues, the post it replied to said that capitalism could not compete on peaceful terms.


 No.1420[Reply]

Any one else seen of the scandel that collegeboard has gotten itself into?

Long story short, because of coronachan, they did AP exams online, problem is that they had every person in the world take them at the same time, including international students who had to take them very early in the morning like 2 AM.

What should be done about this? Collegeboard also seems to have monopolized education because of the fact that every university and college requires people to take the SAT which collegeboard owns

My idea would be for the government to not recognize it as a nonprofit anymore by taxing the shit out of them.
If they end up raising the prices of their tests, it would prove our point that they are a greedy company in disguise, or its gonna force them to just plain admit that they are a company, and that they will cut back on test costs to gain their nonprofit status back.

Either way fuck this greedy company, Collegeboard is one of the higher powers that is fucking up the American education system
2 posts omitted. Click reply to view.
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 No.7450

That's how non-profits work. Especially churches.
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 No.7451

AP, ACT, SAT, GRE, etc. CollegeBoard controls the entirety of standardized higher education testing in the US.
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 No.7452

So the problem doesn't necessarily seem to be capitalism, but the fact that a single company has been given a monopoly over testing thanks to federal regulations

Noted
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 No.7453

>>7452
>doesn't necessarily seem to be capitalism
>company
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 No.7454

File: 1699550359827.png ( 228.3 KB , 1198x1198 , marx faceplam.png )

>>7452
>the problem doesn't necessarily seem to be capitalism
>a single company has been given a monopoly
Capitalism has a tendency towards monopoly formation
So if you are complaining about monopolies you are complaining about capitalism too.


File: 1608528013050.jpeg ( 18.78 KB , 477x413 , left-center-right.jpeg )

 No.760[Reply]

I hear Deng and Bukharin be described as right-wing,
Stalin as center,
Bordiga as left –
but then where the fuck would people like Lenin, Trotsky, Mao and Cockshott fit in to this? Lenin had a big shift in positions (before vs after the revolution), Trotsky was clearly very similar to Lenin in positions after, but he often gets called "left" by Stalinists. Mao clearly was more sympathetic to Stalin than either Trotsky or post-Stalin right-wing revisionists, yet he is occasionally slandered as "ultra-left" (which is ridiculous), and then Cockshott went through "ML" (centrist, I suppose) parties, get kicked out for "ultra-leftism" and subsequently writes his seminal work TANS, including a critique of the scrapping of soviet cybernetics in the USSR, bourgeois elements of democratic centralism, and proposes to move towards communism immediately via the DotP through the revolutionary utilization of cybernetics instead of any market mechanisms (market mechanisms seemingly being supported by both right-wing and centrist Communists).
To me, intuitively, it sounds like Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin and Mao, in hindsight, had more in common than they were willing to admit (all "centrists", but how would one divide them into center-left-, center and center-right?), while Cockshott clearly drifted left (toward Bordiga).

I may be missing something, That's why I want to open it up for collective discussion with you all here on /edu/.
26 posts omitted. Click reply to view.
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 No.1014

>>892
Raul Castro and Khrushchev are more like center-r. They did not shift towards privatization as much as Gorbachev and Deng did.
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 No.3528

>>814
It depends when. He is about the same as old Bukharin, and to the right of young Bukharin.
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 No.7446

Communism is left wing. Centrists and right wings have their own economics that better synergize with their social policies.
Base and superstructure, quite uncontrovercially, mutually shape and maintain each other. People only try to unmarry social and economic policy for meme ideologies like ancap.
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 No.7448

> What DEFINES left

Cringe thread. Leftism is dialectic, there is no definition.
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 No.7449

Can we not compared dorky obscure tenured academics with a pet theory to revolutionary leaders who led vanguard parties in the seizure of power?

Very cringe thread


File: 1608528075073.jpg ( 99.95 KB , 1160x945 , model.jpg )

 No.1331[Reply]

Anyone want to journey with me into 3D modeling? I was going to follow along with a blender youtube tutorial, and see where that leaves me at the end of it. Blender is free!
https://youtu.be/TPrnSACiTJ4?list=PLjEaoINr3zgEq0u2MzVgAaHEBt--xLB6U
Feel free to post others or talk about modeling in general.
5 posts and 2 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.
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 No.1399

>>1391
nice
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 No.1407

there's allready this >>>/hobby/8275
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 No.1422

File: 1608528086231.png ( 457.73 KB , 663x664 , blender_2020-06-01_18-18-3….png )

I'm far from a beginner in Blender. currently modelling for a Sonic fan game that I'm currently also programming. ama
I'm 100% self taught when it comes to computer graphics and computer programming.
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 No.1428

is there any good rigged model of lennin out there?
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 No.7445

Been trying blochbench an a way to get acclimated to the basic stuff before jumping into blender. Been fun, even if using an electron / javascript app feels icky.


File: 1608527983864.jpg ( 9.26 KB , 275x183 , Man and Nature.jpg )

 No.502[Reply]

What makes us so special? What makes us different? Humans are primates, when I look at other people I see, in every sense of the word, an ape. We are animals,we look like animals, we smell like animals. Thinking of what we really are makes my head spin.

What makes us special? What makes us different? What makes our lives meaningful? Are we even special? Are we even different? Are we meant to be in an unending war for dominance of nature that inevitably ends in our mutual destruction? Are we meant to become stewards of the Earth, the next stage in energy usage for Life, living in harmony with the Earth as its first sentient aspect? Why were there no others, why only us? In 500 million years of animal life, why only Man? Can more come after us, if we go extinct? Is our purpose merely to choose for ourselves why we exist? Are we free, or are we slaves? Why do we individually seem so limited, and yet together humanity seems to be without limits?

What is the dialectical explanation for Man? His consciousness? His relationship to Nature? His drive to spirituality? Is it a misunderstanding on Man's part? Does Man not see that those aspects he has are those he shares with Nature? Gained from Nature? Marx wrote that many species engage in labor; yet seemingly only man labors first in his mind, then with his body. Why are We in this regard?

Our notions of honor, of courage, of willpower, of morality; only we created cultures. And yet, other species experience these emotions from which such ideas rose. Other species experience love. They feel fear. They summon bravery to conquer that fear.

The materialist relation between Man and Nature, between Man and Himself; why is Man, why are We?

These questions, they haunt me frequently, I wish to understand, to Nature we seemingly stand above as gods, and yet we are of Nature, not apart from it; and to us aspects of Nature, like our Sun, like our Universe; they seem yet greater than we could ever hope to be. Help me to understand.
37 posts and 3 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.
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 No.1454

>>1416
I've posted it before and I'll post it again. Read this all, gotta be a little patient though
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 No.1801

>>502
My dear friend, the answer lies in material conditions and a philosophy. Please give it a read will ya'? I swear, I hate people who have existential crisis when they have learned that their higher being (or what many people call soul) is attached to material and will die once your body dies.
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 No.1804

We labor, which then forms our inner monolog culminating in our consciousness. Animals don't labor.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1876/part-played-labour/index.htm
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 No.7413

Specieses are an abstracion to make biology easier to apply to things like medicine. Humans aren't real. You should focus on what you want to do next rather than trying to find some higher power to be a pawn for.
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 No.7414

>>7413
>Humans aren't real
You mean the category is not the same as the material thing it describes.

There are some attempts in biology to define life in terms of procedural matter pattern replicators, to escape the static categorization trap. These are not easy to grasp, it's unlikely it'll become the common descriptor.


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