/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

I am not a nazi and have never tried to cope by scapegoating imperialism solely on jews. however, the jews have lost their fucking minds.

overwhelming majority of jews worldwide support Israel, believe Israel is part of their identity, believe Israel is in their interest, and want the world to view jewishness as synonymous with Israel. you would think if jews had any sense of long-term self-preservation, they would see that this will necessarily be disastrous for jews in the long term (a minority of jews oppose israel because they recognize this). the level of brainwashing that zionism has achieved on jews is frightening. and worse, the same brainwashing techniques can be used on other groups of people.

what's the moral and necessary way to deal with people who have been brainwashed to such levels of bloodthirst and greed?

>>488695
Assuming that this is in good faith (I wouldn't normally assume such a thing, but this past year I can really, really understand why someone might genuinely ask this), I'll give ya my thoughts.

It's a real fucking bitch. Looking at the events of the past year+, I can find no evidence that all Jews are bloodthirsty Zionists. The amount of Jews who have been brainwashed is still staggering, though. It sort of recontextualizes the supposed "antisemitism" of Stalin's later years for me, because I realize now that once the Mossad and Zionist terror organizations became prevalent, people started having good reason to be suspicious of Jews even if this looked bad and might have resulted in false positives. Zionists unfortunately have a tendency to use the conflation and ambiguity to their advantage. I don't recommend taking the position I do to others, because I don't necessarily trust others' ability to think critically and "walk the line," but my thinking is that Zionism seeks to abuse both wholesale trust and wholesale distrust of Jews. An anti-Zionist movement generally shouldn't take a position of distrust towards Jewish participants, but, at the same time, such a distrust could be justified purely out of paranoid concern for security within an organization. I think that this is a fundamentally unfortunate state of affairs, and I'm glad that organizations have not seen it as necessary to concede to this paranoia - despite all the efforts of Zionists to throw non-Zionist Jews under the bus.

I reiterate that this is a fucking goddamn bitch of a situation here, and I think it might well be even worse than I ordinarily discuss. It really fucking sucks, and it would honestly be so much more convenient and simple if all Jews were just evil Zionist bastards at this point. You know, being accused of being "antisemitic" would probably bother me less if I actually was anti-Jewish, and likewise, I'd probably have more quickly acknowledged the sheer amount of Zionist influence on US politics had I been an actual bigot.

That said, Zionism itself appears to be a weird multi-religious ideology. While it has disproportionately high support within the Jewish population, it has long and bizarre history of Christian support. Zionism, despite its fixation on Jews, appears to kind of be its own insidious thing, and I occasionally wonder how much of the LaRouchite writings on this have it accurately pinned down. I've realized that the LaRouchites are, or were, actually incredibly good academics who aren't just pulling most of this stuff out of their ass, but I don't know whether or not I believe that Zionism is a British conspiracy. The history is certainly bizarre though - like what do I make of George W. Bush having been directly descended from an early Christian Zionist, a Nazi collaborator, and a CIA head who was in Dallas when JFK got shot?
There's a lot of weird shit like that which stretches back to the 1800s and makes the Zionist project seem like some kind of deranged fraternal wish fulfillment. And today, commitment to this evil project is rife among non-Jewish world leaders. Evangelical Christianity, especially in the US, has been twisted to better embody the values of the state religion; grifting, worship of wealth, and Zionism. It's very disturbing stuff, and this aspect has also been an ongoing project for a very long time.

So, I apologize if this has been long-winded. We have the unfortunate responsibility to judge this case by case and the burden of acting rationally when our opponents do not have such a burden. We have to prioritize ending Zionism, and we can't be too concerned with what rude names we are called in bad faith, nor how we are slandered. What we have to do is shut down the supply of arms and money to this genocide, and that is first and foremost. Material destruction of arms factories and complicit banks is important and we need to get on that stat.

As for members of the IDF, shoot them. As for members of Netanyahu's cabinet, shoot them or do whatever is necessary to kill them. Don't assume that anyone is either of these things without confirmation. Don't worry about Jews, worry about stopping the genocide and directly destroying the army which has been committing it, and crippling its imperial backers. This is only going to get worse otherwise.

>>488693
>return of the jewish question
We answered that already, Jews get to have their diaspora thing but they're just regular citizens of the countries they live in.
Don't be confused, the horrors that are happening in Gaza and so on have nothing to do with Jews. Israel is not acting on behalf of Jews. The Jewish diaspora around the world which comprises the majority of Jews oppose what is happening there.

>How do we stop them from acting this way?
Are you referring to the cruelty directed against Palestinians ?
Well some of these people are too far gone, basically they tasted bloodshed and liked it.
For most people the fix is turning off the brainwashing with Zionist supremacy ideology.

>>488702
>Jews get to have their diaspora thing but they're just regular citizens of the countries they live in
Most Jews currently object to such an arrangement because they are pro-apartheid and want to practice jewish supremacism wherever they go. hence why they are backing zionist censorship laws, protest crackdowns, and deportations all over the west.

>Don't be confused, the horrors that are happening in Gaza and so on have nothing to do with Jews
Pure delusion.

>Israel is not acting on behalf of Jews. The Jewish diaspora around the world which comprises the majority of Jews oppose what is happening there
This is a flagrant lie. Most jews are zionists and will tell you so. Go to your local synagogue and ask what they think about israel's """right to exist"""

>For most people the fix is turning off the brainwashing with Zionist supremacy ideology
lmao and how does one do this exactly???

>>488694
>I am not a nazi and have never tried to cope by scapegoating imperialism solely on jews.
Most Jews are against this, so don't associate the crimes of Isreal and the US empire with Jews.

>however, the jews have lost their fucking minds.
A lot of Israeli (which can not be equated with Jews) lost their minds, some people living in the US and Europe did too, but those do not count as "the Jews". You can even define Jewish as incompatible with Zionist ideology. We probably should do that, because that would likely reduce the type of low key anti-semitism that says Isreal's crimes are somehow linked to Jewishness. Israel isn't the first time a state went full fascist, you know.

>>488695
>overwhelming majority of jews worldwide support Israel, believe Israel is part of their identity, believe Israel is in their interest
There is Zionist propaganda that wants you to believe that, but it's not true.
Even in the US where Zionist ideology is pushed on Jews like crazy, you see a harsh decline in support for Israel.
Especially among younger American Jews, Zionist ideology and identification with Israel is on the way out.

The majority of Jews that live around the world do NOT want to be associated with Israel. It's that you're not listening to those voices, which is necessarily your fault, there is a Zionist/imperial lobby that is working hard to deceive you.

Maybe try listening to People like Max Blumenthal, Norman Finkelstein, Katie Halper, or the writings and recordings of the late Noam Chomsky, those are all Jews that criticize Israel very competently.

>>488703
>Most Jews currently object to such an arrangement
No that is just false, there is no evidence to support the claim that Jews reject citizenship in the countries they live. They all have and use their nationality documents and interface with the state as citizens of their respective nations just like any other group.
>they are backing zionist censorship laws, protest crackdowns, and deportations all over the west.
There are many Jews that support democratic rights and freedom of expression. I think that those heroic people are genuine example of expressing Jewish values.
In my mind hardcore Zionists can at most be people who used to be Jewish. The Zionists want to destroy the diaspora, that's incompatible with Judaism as far as i know.

>they are pro-apartheid and want to practice jewish supremacism wherever they go.
There is a propaganda machine that wants to create this appearance, but objectively support Israel and identification with Isreal is declining among Jews in the west. The majority of Jews lives in the diaspora all over the world and they never supported Israel, and they certainly don't these days.

The Zionists want there to be more hatred against Jews around the world, because they hope that this will push more Jews to go live in Israel, that's why they try to link Isreal's crimes and that of the US empire to Jews. They want to create more hatred towards Jews because they want to instrumentalize it for political goals. It would be stupid beyond measure to play along with that.

>Go to your local synagogue
Pointless, at most it could prove institutional capture. There is a powerful Zionist lobby, and i consider everything they can influence as potentially biased and not representative of genuine sentiments of Jews. The Zionist lobby represents imperial interests, and that pretty much rules out that it can represent the organic interests of People.

>>488693
>Seriously, what the fuck is the solution to this? How do we stop them from acting this way?

The real answer is end foreign efforts to destabilize the region. There is an evident material reason why the middle east is a hotspot for murderous fucks and it has nothing to do with the ethnicity or religion of locals and everything to do with a certain faction of the capitalist class's mad drive to control the global trade of oil.

>>488702
>The Jewish diaspora around the world which comprises the majority of Jews oppose what is happening there.
Completely and utterly false. Where do people get this absurd delusion?

>>488696
Fucking hate that I wrote this entire response and just get totally ignored.

>>488707
This is correct also.

>>488709
>I wrote this entire response and just get totally ignored.
i read it when you posted it, but i had to think about it.

>>488696
This is a ok take, however do not let your self be baited into discriminating against Jews, go look at socialist history, you'll find that many influential social thinkers were Jews. And we might want to borrow some part of Jewish culture for socialist construction, like the idea of a kibbutz. Ruthless intellectual honesty is another thing that appears to have originated in Jewish culture, and that's probably something we want to borrow as well.

You are not wrong to want to guard against Zionist infiltration, but consider that the Zionists have gotten worse at that over time. They have ideologically shifted to become increasingly more extreme, and that means they have to work much harder to pretend to be normal now. In a way they are time-travelers from the past trying to fit in with the future. Zionists really want you to equate Zionism and Judaism, but it's not, these are separate things.

>>488720
>you'll find that many influential social thinkers were Jews. And we might want to borrow some part of Jewish culture for socialist construction

Many Bolsheviks were Jewish and a disproportionate amount of socialists are Jews…

>>488708
>Completely and utterly false. Where do people get this absurd delusion?
There is an insane pro-zionist bias in views that are being boosted in media, but it represents a loud minority that only pretends to speak on behalf of all Jews. The majority of Jews that live all over the world are somewhat indifferent or opposed to the Zionist ideological project in Israel and occupied Palestine, because they live in other countries. For example think about Jews living in China, why would they care about this at all, other than it potentially damaging their reputation. Zionists probably are hurting the reputation of Jews by asserting that they are doing genocide on behalf of Jews. Many if not most Jews think "Not in my name !" but these voices are not boosted in the media. This is perhaps less common in the US, but were talking about the world. There are a lot of Jews that live in Iran, they're probably strongly opposed to Israel because Israel points nukes at their home, and tries to start a war against them roughly every 5 years.

We have to consider the propaganda narrative pushers.

Zionists want to push the narrative that Jews are supporting or at least consenting with what is being done to the Palestinians, which is very dishonest.
Zionists also push the antisemitic tale that Jews are somehow disloyal to their countries, because they want to stir up hatred against the Jewish diaspora. The Zionist vision is that of all Jews going to Isreal as an ethno-state. Isreal has been "open" for a while now and most Jews didn't go, they preferred to stay in their respective home-countries.

Younger Jews are increasingly opposed to Zionism, and that means that the historic ark bends in a direction the Zionist don't want. Of course the Zionists might try to improve their ideology. Extreme racist hatred and lots of blood-shed isn't selling well any-more. Why not try to do something else, that is more palatable. I hear young people like egalitarian societies, with low economic inequality and a distinct lack of racial bigotry. Why not try to refashing Isreal into something that is actually appealing. They could stop dehumanizing Palestinians and propose to live with them as equals, with rights, you know since everybody is human. That probably would be a lot more successful. What they are doing now has made lots of Jews emigrate out of Israel. Maybe take a hint.

>>488720
>This is a ok take, however do not let your self be baited into discriminating against Jews, go look at socialist history, you'll find that many influential social thinkers were Jews.
I wasn't saying that I think discriminating against Jews is good. I think discriminating against Jews is bad and should be avoided. Discriminating against Germans during WWII was also bad on a moral level, and it's possible that the German… diaspora?… at that time was considerably less propagandized with Nazi ideology than the Jewish diaspora is with Zionist ideology, since Zionism is older now than Nazism was at the start of WWII. I think that suspicion of people for reasons of their ethnic background or cultural heritage or religion is bad. I also have realized, in the past year, that the level of Zionist infiltration has been far, far beyond anything I would have reasonably expected in the past, and I find it difficult to judge people who respond to that with levels of paranoia which I might disagree with on a rational basis.

If I had told myself, two years ago, that the editor-in-chief of The Atlantic was previously a prison guard for the IDF, the past version of me would have either not believed current me or would have tried to handwave it and disregard the significance. Past me would have handwaved example after example of this sort of thing, and disregarded the significance… and it's not unlikely that a past version of myself would have responded to such facts with a feeling of suspicion about what sentiments might motivate future me to be wary of such connections between our media and Israel & Israeli interests. You know, I probably would not have interpreted someone rattling off those kinds of facts very charitably. In many cases, the prevalence of Zionism within the mainstream media is much less obvious than with Jeffrey Goldberg or Barak Ravid - as far as I know, Dana Bash was never personally in the IDF, yet she's no less bloodthirsty & insidious a Zionist than a number of media figures who came straight out of the IDF are. How in the fuck could a rational person have predicted that?

Before all of this occurred, before 2023, if you had told me that you had pored over all of Dana Bash's public statements and found out she was a Zionist… first off, I would have thought you were a freak. And I would have been correct in that assessment!
Secondly, I would have told you that Zionism, and sympathy for Israel, are very common sentiments among American Jews - and, again, I would have been correct in my assessment. Of the Jews I've known IRL who had an opinion on Israel that I was made aware of, before 2023 about half of them were Zionists or sympathetic to Israel. The half who weren't sympathetic to Israel were mostly younger or were people I met specifically in left wing communities; the actual prevalence of Zionism among the American Jewish population, at that time, was much higher than the proportion among Jews who I personally interacted with enough to know their opinions. It was simply a fact of life, if an unfortunate one, that many American Jews held these sympathies - people I knew personally, and even liked!, were Zionists, and many more people who I didn't know personally or never discussed it with were also Zionists… so if you told me, years ago, that Dana Bash was a Zionist, I might well have been more suspicious of you for thinking it was a significant fact than I would have been of Dana Bash… and yet, here we are! The horrible implications of Dana Bash's Zionism are totally apparent to me now. And yet, even though Dana Bash was a public figure with publicly-held beliefs, I would not have been suspicious of her then… and most people who hold those beliefs are not public figures. There is no universal law that all Zionists must have their beliefs be a matter of public record. This is part of why, while I disagree with any prejudiced suspicion of Jews as a group by association, I understand the inclination to do that in a way which I previously wouldn't have. I caution against doing it, but I understand why someone would in the same way that I understand why someone might suspect someone of German heritage of Nazi sympathies in the 1940s.

>>488723
>I think discriminating against Jews is bad and should be avoided.
Alright.

>Discriminating against Germans during WWII was also bad on a moral level, and it's possible that the German… diaspora?… at that time was considerably less propagandized with Nazi ideology than the Jewish diaspora is with Zionist ideology, since Zionism is older now than Nazism was at the start of WWII.
Oh bother

German is a nationality, which is not a diaspora. (There is a German language diaspora of sorts, but that is not tied to the German nationality)
Judaism is a religious affiliation.
You're comparison is not valid.
Maybe you could make this comparison with Israeli nationals. But even that is not really going to work because there still are many people in Israel who are fundamentally opposed to Zionist ideology.

Do not link Jews to Israel, do not spread the idea that Jewish could be considered a nationality. Jews have lot of nationalities, and there is no reason to doubt that they will behave as nationals of their respective countries.

Do not allow Zionist ideological premises into your argument.

Zionism is ideologically opposed to the Jewish diaspora.

>I think that suspicion of people for reasons of their ethnic background or cultural heritage or religion is bad. I also have realized, in the past year, that the level of Zionist infiltration has been far, far beyond anything I would have reasonably expected in the past,
<… rest of your post.

The Zionist lobby is an imperialist machination, their purpose is to fashion Israel into a weapon for US empire to dominate west-Asia/middle-east. They have infiltrated governments in the west the same way other imperialist machinations have.

We are not going to let them tie this to Jews, because from the looks of it, this entire project is beginning to dismantle it self, and these fuckers are not going to scapegoat the Jews. The blame for this horrow-show will get pinned at that specific faction of imperial capital, their henchmen, the Zionist ideologues, the government of Israel, those regional vassals, the war-criminals and all their enablers.

We're not going to do guilt by association, on the basis of religion or other spooks like races and what not.

Maybe i'm miss-interpreting what you intent to say, but you definitely tripped several "early warning systems" here.


I think what you want to do is revisit the story of the Japanese internment camps in the US during WW2. And try to figure out what lessons can be learned from that mistake.

>>488724
>Oh bother
>German is a nationality, which is not a diaspora.
Ordinarily immigrants from a certain nationality living elsewhere are what a diaspora is. Jews are the exception, if anything, where it means something different.

>Maybe you could make this comparison with Israeli nationals. But even that is not really going to work because there still are many people in Israel who are fundamentally opposed to Zionist ideology.
There are very few people in Israel opposed to Zionism. Like, I think the last estimate I heard was, like, a couple hundred individuals.

And as for America, I can't honestly say I believe that Zionism is less prevalent among Jewish Americans today than Nazism was among German-Americans in the 1940s. That's not because Jewish and German are both nationalities - obviously only one of those two is a nationality. Rather, it's because American Jews have been heavily indoctrinated with Zionism, and the Israeli state has allocated resources to support this indoctrination very effectively. The Nazi German state also indoctrinated people, but it had way less time to do it. Still, people during WWII could be suspicious of the sympathies of people of German heritage living in other countries - and they wouldn't always be wrong! What we're seeing now is like if Nazi Germany had been able to indoctrinate multiple generations of diaspora Germans around the world without interruption.

>Do not link Jews to Israel,
That's not really up to me.

>do not spread the idea that Jewish could be considered a nationality.
I didn't. ;P

>Zionism is ideologically opposed to the Jewish diaspora.
And yet Mossad has an estimated 10k+ civilian agents in the US alone and runs similar operations in other countries. And yet many of the most influential Zionist fanatics are wealthy Americans with zero intention of ever actually moving to Israel. Norman Finkelstein has expressed a preference for the term "Jewish supremacist" for this type of Zionist, but whatever you choose to call them it's still very obvious that there are Zionists who fully support the Zionist state but prefer not to live there. This isn't stuff I can realistically gloss over and ignore; much of Zionism is hostile to the Jewish diaspora, yes, but the Israeli state has exactly as much use for sleeper agents as Nazi Germany would have.

>We are not going to let them tie this to Jews, because from the looks of it, this entire project is beginning to dismantle it self
People keep saying this. Ok, it's dismantling itself - by consolidating power in the US and Europe, making territorial gains in the middle east, and acquiring all the weapons, technology, and political and media control it could possibly need?
People compare it to Apartheid South Africa, and… SA had been kicked out of the UN for over a decade before apartheid ended. There's no equivalent here to that. This is more brutal, and there's much, much less opposition to it and far more corporate & government support. This current situation is like if the US and UK had joined in SA's war against its neighbors in the late '80s. From afar, what's going on with Israel may seem chaotic, but where, exactly, is the instability? Where is the lapse in material support from major powers?
Even China is still trading with Israel. Whatever unease exists, do you really, genuinely believe that this unease is more severe than the rapid pace annihilation being doled out against Palestine?
I'll believe that Israel is gonna do a civil war or whatever when there's any actual indication of that at all. So far they haven't even tried to kill Netanyahu. Even the Germans tried to kill Hitler.

>Maybe i'm miss-interpreting what you intent to say, but you definitely tripped several "early warning systems" here.
That's the thing, those are bullshit. ;P
We've been conditioned to treat certain aspects of this as taboo. To an extent that's better than just going over the other way, but it also results in people limiting the amount of information they're capable of processing out of fear of going too far. Knowing what I know now, I could have predicted what is happening now years ago… but I wouldn't have predicted it, because I would just have willingly overlooked the implications of Israeli influence and indoctrination in the US even if I was aware that it was there. We're living in what I would, a couple years ago, have thought would be a wild anti-semitic fantasy, and if someone had told me that this would happen I would have been suspicious of the person telling me about it.

>I think what you want to do is revisit the story of the Japanese internment camps in the US during WW2. And try to figure out what lessons can be learned from that mistake.
I'm not interested in interning anyone. Also I don't have the ability to anyway. Do you know who does have that ability?
ICE, which was created in 2003 by Bush, who I mentioned in a previous post. I'm not worried about me abusing power I don't have in order to do a thing I have no desire to do, I'm much more worried about the masked agents of the state who do have a desire to do that and who are currently doing it with no meaningful impediments.

>>488704
>>488705
>>488706
Just lies. Cite me one survey showing that most jews worldwide support freeing Palestine from the river to the sea, with expulsion of jewish invaders.

Wow, Laith Marouf (respected Lebanese journalist) absolutely kills it here criticizing the failure of "anti-zionist jews."
https://xcancel.com/TVFreePalestine/status/1909947368897642583
https://xcancel.com/TVFreePalestine/status/1910717927252197627

.
@TonyGreenstein
digs himself deeper into the hole of Jewish Exceptionalism (in other words Jewish Supremacy). Let's break it down. one paragraph at a time.

"So the test of anti-Zionist Jews in the West is whether they are willing to be martyrs?"

-No the test is at least one martyr in a hundred years, or real confrontation with the Zionist Jewish infrastructure around you. Attempt to liberate your Jewish Schools, Hospitals, Temples, etc. No one else can, and nobody else has that moral responsibility to liberate Judaism and Jews from Zionism.

"It is not our responsibility to take up arms against Zionism and if we did we'd achieve nothing."

-I guess it was not the responsibility of anti-Nazi Germans to take up arms against Nazis, and the 70k who were martyred doing so, achieved nothing. Or is it only when the victims are jewish it's different?

"If Laith had anything serious to say he would ask why the Arab nation and states have done nothing except collaborate but that would be asking too much."

-Millions of Arabic people in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Yemen, Tunis, Bahrain, Oman and Jordan have been martyred since 1942 fighting for liberation from Colonialism, Imperialism and Zionism, and against all the corrupt Vassal regimes amongst us; and Laith Marouf has been one of the loudest voices on the subject. But according to Tony, the Indigenous people are to blame for their own suffering since that have yet to defeat the strongest and most ruthless Empire humanity has ever known; all while he preaches Pacifism in the belly of the beast.

"If right-wing Palestinians like Laith have nothing to say about where the Palestinian struggle has gone wrong, why you have a Quisling Palestinian Authority and want to defend David Miller fine. That won't win you many friends."

Laith comes from a family of PFLP founders, and is Communalist. He is also one of the loudest voices against the Collaborationist Palestinian Non-Authority and as a result he had guns pulled on him by PA goons in Lebanon. Hundreds of Palestinians languish in PA jails because of their opposition, and many like Nizar Banat were murdered by the PA. Again, Tony blames the Indigenous people, to absolve his oppressor group of the crimes committed in their name. We are not here to make friends at the cost of the Revolution.

"anti-Zionist Jews have died. The first such one was Jacob de Haan in 1921 assassinated by the Hagannah. The Bund came into conflict with the Zionists in Eastern Europe on many occasions."

Jacob de Haan was the first and last Jew to be killed by Zionists for his anti-Zionist work in 1921, ie 104 years ago. Laith correctly said none were martyred in a hundred years. The Bund were honourable in their fight against the Zionist collaboration with the Nazis; they killed Kapos. Today, there is no Bund killing Zionist Kapos inside Palestine, or in the West were the Zionists are providing the Neo-Nazis with lists of people to disappear. Is it worth carrying arms against the Zionists only when their victims are Jewish?

"I wrote a book…." To be clear, nothing ever published by a Jewish person in regards to Zionism and its crimes wasn’t already published by a Palestinian decades before. Only because of Racism, and refusal to learn Arabic, does any book written by an anti-Zionist Jew ever get a platform.

"I wrote a book…" so I am not responsible for the genocide in my name. That would have been all ok, we wouldn’t have criticized you, if you didn’t decide to attack
@Tracking_Power
as anti-Jewish because he talked about the complicity of Jewish institutions in the Genocide; and if you would have the courage to face them. #DismantelZionism

>>488727
>Like, I think the last estimate I heard was, like, a couple hundred individuals.
I woke up tonight in a cold sweat remembering that this line I wrote isn't entirely accurate. The numbers among the ultra-orthodox Jewish population in Israel are probably higher and likely in the thousand+ range. I think I was thinking of Jewish anti-Zionist/anti-genocide activists when I wrote "a couple hundred" and didn't think of the Haredim in that context.

>>488727
>Ordinarily immigrants from a certain nationality living elsewhere are what a diaspora is. Jews are the exception, if anything, where it means something different.
I'm not sure i agree with this, but i will admit i do not have a coherent definition of diaspora.

>And as for America, I can't honestly say I believe that Zionism is less prevalent among Jewish Americans today than Nazism was among German-Americans in the 1940s. That's not because Jewish and German are both nationalities - obviously only one of those two is a nationality. Rather, it's because American Jews have been heavily indoctrinated with Zionism, and the Israeli state has allocated resources to support this indoctrination very effectively. The Nazi German state also indoctrinated people, but it had way less time to do it. Still, people during WWII could be suspicious of the sympathies of people of German heritage living in other countries - and they wouldn't always be wrong! What we're seeing now is like if Nazi Germany had been able to indoctrinate multiple generations of diaspora Germans around the world without interruption.
It's difficult to figure out what you mean. I think you are making assumptions about allegiances that are not true. Many people probably emigrated from Germany to the US prior to WW2 because they didn't like fascism. I think you are trying to sell me some kind off idea about making prejudiced assumptions about somebodies political views based on what ? nationality and religion ? I think that's a bad strategy.

>That's not really up to me.
I mean rhetorically. You are throwing anti-Zionist Jews under the bus if you don't make it clear that they had nothing to do with Isreal's crimes in Gaza and beyond.

>And yet Mossad has an estimated 10k+ civilian agents in the US alone and runs similar operations in other countries.
I think that only goes because Isreal servers as an imperial outpost. "They" let the Mossad do this.

>And yet many of the most influential Zionist fanatics are wealthy Americans with zero intention of ever actually moving to Israel. Norman Finkelstein has expressed a preference for the term "Jewish supremacist" for this type of Zionist, but whatever you choose to call them it's still very obvious that there are Zionists who fully support the Zionist state but prefer not to live there.
To be honest I don't understand Finkelstein's calculation. He's Jewish why is he trying to "own" the zionists hatreds, something he spend fighting against his entire life. Why isn't he saying "Fuck the Zionists, they're no longer part of Judaism, Zionists are hate-preachers and we're cutting them out.

>This isn't stuff I can realistically gloss over and ignore; much of Zionism is hostile to the Jewish diaspora, yes, but the Israeli state has exactly as much use for sleeper agents as Nazi Germany would have.
So you want to declare all the Jews who live in the diaspora as suspected spies ? Do you seriously think you'll catch any actuall spies with this ?
Consider that you are alienating a lot of potential allies.
I don't see any benefit in doing this.

>We've been conditioned to treat certain aspects of this as taboo. To an extent that's better than just going over the other way, but it also results in people limiting the amount of information they're capable of processing out of fear of going too far. Knowing what I know now, I could have predicted what is happening now years ago…
I did predict Isreal going full retard in gaza several years ago. So my "taboos" are not clouding my crystal ball. If you increase hostility towards Jews, you will miss out on potential allies and you'll push more people towards Zionism. The Zionists try to tell Jews "everybody hates you, your only option is to support our bloody crusade". If we offer an alternative option that means less people signing up for the crusade.

I think your counter-espionage tactics do not work. If you exclude Jews the Mossad will just use non-jewish agents to infiltrate your whatever.

>>488727
>People keep saying this. Ok, it's dismantling itself - by consolidating power in the US and Europe, making territorial gains in the middle east, and acquiring all the weapons, technology, and political and media control it could possibly need?
Isreal's economy is wrecked. Because the workers got conscripted. Because Yemen did a trade blockade. Because all the techies left Israel to avoid conscription. Israel had a tourism sector and that's dead too for obvious reasons.

Israel's military is suffering exhaustion and attrition, because it wasn't designed for extended deployment. Capturing territory in Syria has given them a big political boost, but operationally it means an increased drain on resources.

The US has problems that limit the support it can give Israel. Now if Israel halted all the mayhem and focused on repairing it's civilian economy, mending all the diplomatic bridges they burned down and what not, maybe they could recover. It would also mean that any ambition of Israel becoming the region's hegemon, has to be written off. So consider this an unlikely scenario.

You probably also misread the situation in the west, Israel lost popular support and that's why they are cracking down, in doing so they made their influence networks very visible.

They're likely going to continue until they have cratered Israel, but the US empire isn't like the British empire, they're eventually going to cut their losses, and then the entire Zionist lobby that attacks democratic rights in the West evaporates.

The Chinese aren't intervening because they want the US to get bogged down dealing with Israel's Bullshit. The Chinese also promised the BRICS members they'll be a gentle power, that builds rather than destroys.

>muh anti-zionist jews
this is just hasbara at this point.

>pic 1
89% of american jews have favorable opinion of israelis. this is the nail in the coffin. if you have a favorable opinion of israelis, you are zionist.

>pic 2
only 13% of american jews think biden was favoring israel """too much.""" you could think this and still be a zionist, and even then american jews fail.

>pic 3
a MERE 7% OF AMERICAN JEWS think israel doesn't have valid reasons to """fight hamas""". read it and weep.

>pic 4
LESS THAN 3% OF AMERICAN JEWS SYMPATHIZE ENTIRELY WITH PALESTINIANS.

https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/views-of-the-u-s-role-in-the-israel-hamas-war/

I actually didn't dig into these stats before because I thought I had seen enough to know the average jew was a racist zionist. the reality is much worse than I thought. truly anti-zionist jews aren't just a minority, they are almost non-existent. why should I give a shit about defending these people's reputation?

>>488758
>truly anti-zionist jews aren't just a minority, they are almost non-existent.
This isn't really true. The small percentage of American Jews here who could be described as anti-Zionists is still a hundred thousand+ people, and those people show up disproportionately in anti-genocide activism. I think there's something negative to be said for non-Jewish Americans here, who are a much larger group but are underrepresented in this area… although, to be clear, I understand why so Jews have a disproportionately large presence in the anti-genocide activism and it's unfortunate that they aren't an even larger presence. Even so, the American response in general has been embarrassingly docile. A more recent Pew poll from this year has the general population at 53% unfavorable towards Israel - we need to fucking act.

>>488759
there are ~7 million jews living in the usa. if 2% of them sympathize entirely with palestinians per that poll (a requirement to be anti-zionist, but not proof of such), that would be 140,000. a really pathetic showing.

>those people show up disproportionately in anti-genocide activism
a lot of jews showing up to these protests are ziolibs (JVP, if not now, etc) who are just trying to make israel and jews look better. it's hasbara targeted at progressives. some are also literal mossad spies. and, at the protests I've attended, I saw almost no jews or even white people in general. it was mostly arabs.

>there's something negative to be said for non-Jewish Americans here
that's the thing. if I say I hate americans because they're racist and genocidal, most leftists won't care. because it's true for the most part. but you'll twist yourself in knots trying to defend jews against the same. leftists have been conditioned to give jews special treatment because they're more afraid of getting accused of antisemitism than they are dedicated to telling the truth about zionism, which is the dominant ideology of imperialism today.

>>488758
First They are not asking the real questions in those surveys.
Like
<Should Palestinians be subjected to a genocide for the sake of creating an ethnocentric apartheid state ?
Second this is very US centric, it does not reflect what Jews think worldwide.

I want to stress a few other things
Israeli, Zionist, Jew are not interchangeable. Most Jews in the world are neither Israeli nationals nor do they subscribe to Zionist ideology.
Most Zionists in the US are not Jewish.

The Zionists want to create the appearance as if they represent the interests of a Jewish constituency.
They want to stir up hatred against Jews, because part of their ideological justification is that Israel is supposed to function as a safe haven for Jews.
Neither of these things are true, but if you shit on Jews you might play into their hands.

The Zionists also want to instrumentalize antisemitic to attack anti-Zionist Jews. (which is most Jews if you broaden your view to the entire world)
The anti-dote here probably is to say that Zionism is separate from Judaism, and that the two are no longuer compatible. There is a tension, religion can't be states ideology.

The Problem we have is Zionist ideology and the fact that the state of Israel has gone full fascist because it's modeled after a colonial imperial outpost of an empire that is loosing it's grip on domination. We do not have any problems with Judaism, and there is no reason to think that the two are related.

In the US support for Israel is declining, the ethnic cleansing shit is eroding public support. So that is a beneficial development.

The last thing is political strategy, the Zionists are not going to win this one, their mass murder project is the last hold-out from the colonial period causing a big bloodbath on the way out. When this becomes more apparent, many people will want to distance them selves from Zionism and we should not hinder this.

>but you'll twist yourself in knots trying to defend jews against the same. leftists have been conditioned to give jews special treatment because they're more afraid of getting accused of antisemitism than they are dedicated to telling the truth about zionism, which is the dominant ideology of imperialism today.
We want the debate to be about imperialism and Zionism, we want the blame to get directed at the most powerful people at the top.
We want the anti-Zionist Jews on our side.

>>488761
you are completely deflecting and acting like a hasbara LLM. anti-zionist jews are an irrelevant minority, and zionism is the dominant, definitive form of judaism today.

>>488763
Suck on a token, i'm not a lemlem

I'm going to make this simpler for you. If i shit on Zionists, i'm not shitting on anti-Zionist Jews, nor zio-indifferent Jews, and i'm leaving the door open to welcome people who change their mind and ditch Zionist views.
So the net effect of changing my position to yours is to throw anti-Zionist Jews under the bus, to alienate a bunch more people who do not care about Zionism one way or another, and close the door on de-zionification. Why on earth would i do this ?

>zionism is the dominant, definitive form of judaism today.
There are many people in the US and Isreal that think this, but that is changing, especially if you consider generational changes.

If you take into account that there exists a world beyond the US and Israel, where Judaism definitely is not Zionist, this statement is bonkers. Go ask a Jew from India what they care about, they might worry about a conflict with Pakistan over Kashmir or something like that. There are Jews living in Iran that would like to bite your head off for saying this.

Objectively Zionism = antisemitism, because Zionism is about exterminating the Palestinians who are ethnically Semitic.

One more thing, the Zionists hate anti-zionist Jews, and would like to persecute them, why would you ever consider granting these fuckers any leeway on persecution.

>>488760
>that would be 140,000. a really pathetic showing.
I did the same math as you (as evidenced by the second sentence of my post where I give the same figure ;P) and that's still a lot of people.

>a lot of jews showing up to these protests are ziolibs (JVP, if not now, etc) who are just trying to make israel and jews look better. it's hasbara targeted at progressives. some are also literal mossad spies. and, at the protests I've attended, I saw almost no jews or even white people in general. it was mostly arabs.
JVP is anti-Zionist afaik. I don't remember if If Not Now is.
I'm sure that some of the Jewish protesters are Mossad spies - like, that wouldn't surprise me at all.
I've been to a number of protests, and they've tended to be pretty mixed. The local ones are like roughly 40% Arab, 30% various kinds of white, 15% black, 10% Latino, and 5% east Asian, and those numbers fluctuate a lot depending on turnout. The biggest one I attended was in DC, though, and I'd say like 1/3rd of the people at that were Jewish, and it was a crowd of around 30k people total.

>that's the thing. if I say I hate americans because they're racist and genocidal, most leftists won't care. because it's true for the most part. but you'll twist yourself in knots trying to defend jews against the same. leftists have been conditioned to give jews special treatment because they're more afraid of getting accused of antisemitism than they are dedicated to telling the truth about zionism, which is the dominant ideology of imperialism today.
I actually won't twist myself in knots trying to defend Jews against the same. I really do not give a fuck about Jews looking bad, it is not a priority to me.
My problem with ya statement that I replied to in my previous post is that, in my experience, Jews are turning up, and this is even though the statistical average for Zionist beliefs held among American Jews is much higher than among the general population. I care less about how Jews are failing to stop this than I do how the rest of us, who are a much larger group with less indoctrination (minus Zionist-captured American Evangelical perverts) are somehow failing even harder. It's fucking embarrassing, we need to be destroying the factories, we have the numbers to do that.

As someone from an actual minority group (indigenous), father involved heavily at a point in tribal politics, Uncle worked on indigenous issues at the UN etc. + I'm married to an Israeli. (oh boy the hot takes I hear)
The issue is Ethno-Narcissism.
Most Non-White Liberal/Left groups have an extremely strong ingroup bias. Noticed all the Black kids in school mostly only hang out with black kids, asians with asians, indians with indians etc? This is not because of "white supremacy" or whatever, but because they just mostly associate with their own community, this is largely the norm and is a completely alien concept to most Leftists who have an extreme outgroup bias. Jews, out of all groups, probably have the strongest ingroup bias there is, the religion is ethno-centric and ethno-supremacist, the ideology that is taught from a young age is extremely ethno-centric and ethno-supremacist, Yiddish itself at a linguistic level is extremely ethno-centric and supremacist
>Jewish person eats = Essen
>Gentile eats = Fressen (Eats like a pig)
>Jewish person dies = Starben
>Gentile dies = Pagern (Dies like a dog)
>Jewish person drinks = Trinken
>Gentile drinks = Soifen (Drinks like a pig)
>A Jewish person = Mensch (A good person)
>A Gentile = Goyim (Subhuman uneducated peasant retard)
>A Jewish woman = Froy (a wife)
>A Gentile woman = Shiksa (A degenerate slut)
Now this alone is pretty fucking bad. But what turns ethno-centrism into narcissism, is a rampant victim complex.
Victim idpol basically teaches people that anything they do is justified for self-protection, but also they have no self responsibility because someone else is at fault. This is why Black people act like complete obnoxious fucking antisocial spastic retards so often, because the mindset is "Why should I care? they hate me, if I do something bad it's justified because whitey", I see this so often in my own community, indigenous politics is wracked by corruption, tribal leaders all being bougie sellout fucks, oh they sold off a bunch of tribal land in a firesale for money for themselves, whitey is at fault though for buying it. Don't even get me started how fucking RETARDED and violent Gen Z indigenous kids are now they larp as drill gangbanger blacks with the black victim complex thrown on top of an already strong indigenous victim idpol.
All of this pales in comparison to Jewish victim complex though. From the moment they can basically hear, the average Jewish person is fed a diatribe of fetishized victim complex every other day for their entire lives. The holocaust the holocaust the pogroms the pogroms the holocaust the holcaust the pogroms antisemitism pogroms antisemitism pogroms etc. It's presented in a super fetishized ritualized manner as well. Jewish people have pointed this out before, Curb makes fun of it a bit, but the best example of this attitude being called out is Crazy Ex Girlfriend's "Remember that we suffered"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLNa-ocdryY
I shit you not, I've been told, to my face, numerous times, by Jewish people, they are the most discriminated against group in the entire West, they are the most discriminated against group, in the US. They are more discriminated against than us natives, than blacks, than homeless, appalacian whites etc. I've had people say this to me, to my face, as they work in 6-7 figure jobs finance, law firms etc.
It's just a delusional worldview. Now very easily this sort of victim complex can easily turned into "Those who are not with me are going to hurt me" and that turns into what you see now, the vast majority of the Jewish community basically jerking it to dead children and a genocide.
This is what happens when you get Ethno-Narcissism + power, the power now to carry out the narcissism. Narcissists are abusers and the Jewish community now act as abusers in every way, mass gaslighting, cry bullying, violence, tone policing while holding themselves to zero standards, massive projection etc. It's narcissism. It's legitimately a group form of NPD. I've argued with Zionists for literally a decade and never have I argued with one that actually at all engaged in good faith. It was always trained hasbara then crybullying and crying antisemitism when they started getting dunked on. They are trained to be narcissists. You can't even point out basic facts about the Jewish community without them crying antisemitism, as they BRAG about those exact same facts. Isn't it hilarious, you can't criticise Jewish elites throwing their weight around, instead you have to blame CHRISTIANS? No it's not elite jews using their establishment positions to push a pro-Israel position, it's Christians, despite the Democrats do not appeal to Evangelicals at all and Pro-Israel Christians are not even a major voting bloc in most slavishly pro-Israel countries.
It's just a mass level of absurdity but that is the point, because it's gaslighting. They have the influence and power, can spout the absolute absurd and get away with it and if you go against the narrative, say goodbye to your life if you are a public figure.
This is the most dangerous result of Idpol, Idpol is a politics of narcissism, every Wokie is just as responsible for the genocide of Gaza as every Pro-Israel Zionist rightoid as they legitimized this sort of identity politics victimhood that can never be questioned.

>>488730
I still love they shit on David Miller so hard for literally just calling a spade a spade and literally debunking Zionist claims like Jews are the "true indigenous people" of the Levant decolonizing the region, when genetics show for a fact Palestinians and Lebanese are far more related to ancient Hebrew populations than any Jewish group by a mile.
They purposely take out of context what Miller says (his response) and say shit like "Why is this weirdo talking about genetics and bloodlines" when it's in response to Zionists bullshit claims about bloodlines and genetics.

>>488830
>Ethno-Narcissism
Just another spook. Doesn't matter if it's ethnonationalism, anti-communism, conservatism, progressivism or any other -ism. They all work the same: just stream propaganda to a person's brain until they have a knee-jerk reaction to opposite opinions.

>>488704
>Most Jews are against this
Copium sadly. Polling shows the majority of Jews are not only perfectly fine with the events in Gaza, but in most countries, think Israel hasn't gone far enough. In European countries, support for Zionism and unconditional support for Israel is over 90% among Jews. In the Antisemitism barometer, a vast majority of Jews polled think any and all criticism of Israel is an antisemitic hate crime.
I don't know why people do this massive copium around Jews. We know Muslims hate gays for the most part, Jews have all sorts of absolutely fucked up ethno-centric/supremacist and genocidal beliefs when it comes to Israel.
The vast majority of Jews would be perfectly happy if Palestine and Lebanon was wiped off the earth. Anti-Zionist/Israel critical Jews are a tiny minority in most polling, literally less than 10% in most Western countries.
The US is slightly different because shitloads of US Jews are not practicing and are only ethnically Jewish through grandparents or whatever, but go to any country with a Chief Rabbi, and a majority of Jews will openly in polling, say they are more loyal to Israel than their country of birth an residence.

>>488857
>Polling shows the majority of Jews are not only perfectly fine with the events in Gaza, but in most countries, think Israel hasn't gone far enough.
Same with Russians. Same with MAGAtards. Xenophobia is a disease, it is a mental illness. Humanity is mentally insane.

>>488857
The problem i have with this is that I'm not really sure how much one can trust the data, the Zionist lobby has enormous influence and could be skewing the numbers.

The next thing is that Zionism is not compatible with Judaism. For very secular reasons. Zionism is at best a type ethno-nationalism (if we're not bending over backwards to be conciliatory we would classify it as fascism), while Judaism is a religion which by definition cannot be linked to a state.

I think the way to solve this is just to consider Zionism as a new thing that split off from Judaism. So that would mean the only anti-zionist Jews would be considered to be Jewish.

Consider that internationally outside of the US and some European countries, there is a really large group of people who list Judaism as their religion and do not support the atrocities of Israel. We can't really lump them in with the Zionists.

>The vast majority of Jews would be perfectly happy if Palestine and Lebanon was wiped off the earth.
You are talking about people in the US mainly right ?, they could just be motivated by imperial chauvinism.

>The US is slightly different because shitloads of US Jews are not practicing and are only ethnically Jewish through grandparents or whatever
This makes no sense Judaism is a religion it's not an ethnicity.

>a majority of Jews will openly in polling, say they are more loyal to Israel than their country of birth an residence.
That's a lie then, because they're not signing up to fight in the IDF.

>>488866
>not really sure how much one can trust the data, the Zionist lobby has enormous influence and could be skewing the numbers
Sure but I have seen nothing contradicting these polls IRL either. My local Jewish community is completely Zionist.

>Zionism is not compatible with Judaism. For very secular reasons. Zionism is at best a type ethno-nationalism (if we're not bending over backwards to be conciliatory we would classify it as fascism), while Judaism is a religion which by definition cannot be linked to a state
This is just a pre-Zionist interpretation of Judaism. If Judaism was truly incompatible with Zionism, then Jews would have rejected it wholesale. They embraced it instead.

>would mean the only anti-zionist Jews would be considered to be Jewish.
As an atheist why should I give a fuck? I should side with a tiny minority of jewish sects on a religious dispute why??

>>488866
Equating Judaism with Zionism is like equating Islam with Jihadism. Equating Judaism with Zionism and then turning around and saying Islam is not Jihadism is kinda hypocritical imho. People would be doing the same to Islam if Palestine was an apartheid instead. It's kinda like radlibs equating misogyny with men yet saying that misandry isn't real and that women can't be sexist. It's just counter-bigotry because "punching down is bad."

>>488868
>Sure but I have seen nothing
I guess our experiences differ.

>This is just a pre-Zionist interpretation of Judaism. If Judaism was truly incompatible with Zionism, then Jews would have rejected it wholesale. They embraced it instead.
Maybe it would help you to think about this in terms of people having converted from Judaism to Zionism. Zionism is just a thing that branched off from Judaism. I think of Judaism of the enduring religion while Zionism is just this temporary fad, a fit of insanity that ultimately is a dead end. I think a lot of people will convert back to Judaism from Zionism. Younger Jews are increasingly separating Israel from Judaism.

>As an atheist why should I give a fuck? I should side with a tiny minority of jewish sects on a religious dispute why??
Keep in mind that Judaism proper as in non-Zionist, is dominant if you look at the entire planet. So it's only a minority in a few countries. It's not a small sect. Also Zionism is not organic, it is being propped up by an insane level of propaganda.

Zionists are trying to erect theocratic terror institutions, by trying to impose illegitimate repression, that illegally persecutes criticism of Israel by subverting state mechanisms. They are trying to invert the meaning of anti-semitism. Palestinians are Semitic people, and the Zionists trying to make hatred against these semitic people mandatory, and they are trying to label solidarity with semitic people who are being attacked as anti-semitism. Imagine living during the 1940s and getting accused of anti-semitism for opposing the holocaust.

We have common cause with Jews that do not wish to have their religion colonized by zionist hate-mongers, because we both oppose theocratic terror and we both want freedom of/from religion.

>>488870
>Equating Judaism with Zionism is like equating Islam with Jihadism.
I don't know what Jihadism is, i mean i have heard neocons talk about it, but based on their definition a jihad-person is any person that got killed by US military action during the Afghanistan and Iraq war after 2001. So Jihad = touching the business end of certain products from Raytheon, Lockheedmartin, boeing and nothrupgrummon ? That seems like a very odd definition.

>Equating Judaism with Zionism and then turning around and saying Islam is not Jihadism is kinda hypocritical imho.
I'm having trouble parsing your post, and don't understand what you are trying to say. You oppose equating Judaism with Zionism, that i understand and agree, but why are you talking about Islam, i don't understand the connection, it's an entirely different religion.

>People would be doing the same to Islam if Palestine was an apartheid instead.
Yeah i'm still lost, some Palestinians have Christian religion, and others that i cant remember the name off. And before the British empire invented Israel, Palestine was a country where Jews, Muslims and Christians coexisted relatively peaceful.

>It's kinda like radlibs equating misogyny with men yet saying that misandry isn't real and that women can't be sexist. It's just counter-bigotry because "punching down is bad."
So you are pointing out some kind of hypocrisy.

>>488874
>I don't know what Jihadism is,
It's Islamic neo-Nazism basically. Imagine the New Zealand mosque shooter but instead of shooting mosques he shoots churches or synagogues.

>>488875
Interesting lecture.
Although i do not really understand his opposition to Palestinian solidarity trying to champion his voice. He says he's a Jew and that he can coexist with Palestinians. I get the argument for intellectual consistency, but politically he's sort of squandering an opportunity ihmo.

>>488905
not sure about his own position but imo i wouldnt want palestinian people to be at the forefront either, we arent exactly in the same situation as mlk for example, so saddling the most vulnerable people with the most responsibility and painting a target on their backs in the process doesnt strike me as progressive at all, i would much rather have jewish people lead the charge to confront zionism and the israeli state

>>488905
The only lasting solution to the crisis lies in working-class solidarity between Palestinians and Israelis, unity against both their ruling classes, and for a common struggle to end capitalist exploitation and oppression on both sides of the divide.

>>488991
the only lasting solution is every israeli getting killed or deported. you are fucking delusional if you think otherwise.

>>488992
> only lasting solution is this fucking delusional take
> you are fucking delusional if you think otherwise
sir this is a left wing website, the board is called leftypol, the kill all israelis forum is down that way

>>488991
This fundamentally misunderstands what's going on.
It's like saying "the only lasting solution to France's occupation of Algeria is working class solidarity between the French and Algerians, unity against both their ruling classes, and common struggle to end capitalist exploitation on both sides of the divide." Ok, that would be nice at some point, but if the Algerians had prioritized solidarity with the French over their own capacity to form an organized resistance and fight the occupier then the result would simply have been the collapse of the Algerian resistance without any parallel collapse of the French state.

The goals of the Algerian resistance are national sovereignty and end of subjugation by the French. The idea that this is equivalent, at all, to the goals of the French state (continued colonization of Algeria and increased subjugation of Algerians) is not a serious idea. They resistance to imperialism by people who don't want their land stolen and their culture subjugated is not an equivalent to imperialism, it is an opposing force.

>>488995
im not sure if the anon youre responding to was drawing the equivalence that youre claiming, support for a universalist position doesnt necessarily imply that

>>488998
WWII would have ended if everyone decided to just be friends.

>>488999
but anon, thats what ultimately happened, no?

>>489000
No.

>>489001
looks like the unity of the working peoples of both lands to me. unless you think the soviets massacred 1 gorillion germans in revenge.

>>488992
the only lasting solution is every "Palestinian"getting killed or deported. you are fucking delusional if you think otherwise.

>>489002
>looks like the unity of the working peoples of both lands to me. unless you think the soviets massacred 1 gorillion germans in revenge.
The second part would be a false dichotomy even if you were responding to >>488992 .

How many German outposts remained in Ukraine and Russia?
Do you think the Soviets just let them stick around?
Not only were the German occupiers kicked out, Germany itself was occupied for decades. That's like if somebody intervened in Palestine to kick the Zionists out and then ended up maintaining a military presence in the USA to make sure that Zionists there didn't start any more bullshit. Do you think the average American worker would sign on for an occupation by Iran or China or what ever hypothetical power would achieve such a feat? Of course not.
It's a dumb proposition. No one seriously believes that Berlin was occupied with the consent of the average German worker. Berlin was conquered for Nazi crimes and aggressions which, at that time, most of the German public was ok with.

The defeat of Nazism then depended on actual military defeats, and the defeat of Zionism today depends on exactly the same thing. If all of the communists, Russians, Slavs, Jews, gypsies, French, etc. had aimed only for solidarity with the German workers, it would have achieved nothing. German identity at that time was steeped in ethnic supremacy and entitlement, just like Israeli identity today; if anything, the Germans at that time might well have been a bit less brainwashed on average than present day Israelis, but they still could not be politely dealt with. No one is seriously so stupid as to think that the taking of Berlin was done with Berlin's consent.

>>489004
i was being facetious. was the 1 gorillion part not enough?

>>489005
Ok.

>>489006
ill try to be less of a jerk here
my point is that the universal and particular positions are not necessarily at odds, even after expelling trotsky and establishing the policy of socialism in one country the ussr and the comintern still maintained some degree of commitment to proletarian internationalism, it didnt die with the molotov-ribbentrop pact or operation barbarossa either
every time the communists subjugated their long-term goals to short-term ones they were brutally punished for it, and the ones who kept those goals in sight despite every challenge they faced survived the longest, this should be obvious to us but we now treat it like its a childish fantasy, why do you think that is?

>>488693
Don't start wars you can't finish.

>>489008
It's astonishing that even in a thread like this, you're still the most bad faith and hateful poster participating.

There is no "Jewish question" Only retards deal in personalities.

>>488994
all israelis are fascist freaks. killing them all is a standard leftist position.

>>489014
Um excuse me
it's ackshually somewhere from 90%-98% of Israelis sir