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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

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File: 1743810490987.jpg ( 313.21 KB , 1080x1350 , April 5 2025 March on Wash….jpg )

 No.488572

There's a demonstration in DC on Saturday.
https://marchforpalestine.org/
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 No.488573

As for me… best of luck. It's been over a year of this now, Americans need to be wrecking bomb factories, blocking ports, and disrupting finances at a rate exceeding what the UK's Palestine Action has thus far offered… which hasn't happened yet. Americans messed up like one railroad, shut down maybe 2-3 factories tops, blocked ports a couple times (unsuccessfully iirc?), and gummed up a few ATMs. All good, but much, much more is necessary and would be very easy if we got our shit together.
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 No.488583

Live now from DC
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 No.488586

>>488573
do all leftists desire sending working class people to their deaths and watching them get ground up into paste for causes that will continue to return again and again so long as capitalism continues to exist
are all leftists really so lazy and stupid and malicious that they cling to "anti-imperialism" because their dull and lifeless imagination cant come up with any alternatives to capitalism that can be built here and now
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 No.488587

>>488586
What the fuck are you talkin bout Willis?
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 No.488602

>>488586
>are all leftists really so lazy and stupid and malicious that they cling to "anti-imperialism" because their dull and lifeless imagination cant come up with any alternatives to capitalism that can be built here and now
The experience of the 20th century has convinced many leftists that we can't have nice things until imperialism is in the dust-bin of history.

<Be Russian communist try to build socialism in one country, a horde of fascists murders 30 million of your people, once you overcome that, a big capitalist country far away threatens you with nuclear annihilation and you have to build 10s of thousands of nukes, to keep that at bay. Be Vietnamese communist try to build socialism and watch your people get poisoned by chemicals dropped from the sky, for no reason other than existing or maybe for arms industry profits. Be western leftist try to go for peace and prosperity politics with a soc-dem mixed economy, get which-hunted as foreign spy. Be Chilean Communist, try to build cybernetic socialism with fax machines, get all your politicians murdered by a CIA regime change op. They yelled at communists for not having markets, and the Chinese communists said "ok fine we'll do markets", and now China is still the "big bad" that gets encircled with military bases and attacked with economic war.


Do you see the pattern ?

Imperialism is not just attacking leftist projects. Look at Russia, the imperialists are trying to kill that because it's not the exact version of capitalism they like. The imperial design pegged Russia to do nothing but exploit oil and gas resources, any deviation and it's war.

How do we build "any alternatives to capitalism here and now" when most the efforts will have to be diverted to fending off imperial shit-fuckery anyway. At that point it'll be a alternative in name only.

As far as i can see there's nothing but a growing sea of repression, and if you try to build something, they take it, if they can't take it, they destroy it, if they can't do that the lay siege on you. Do you know of a "space" that offers the opportunity to experiment and try something else.
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 No.488608

>>488583
They got everyone to go meetup outside, great. But what did they all walk away with?

Did they figure out a leadership structure? Did they divide themselves into smaller units that are tasked with something specific? Do people even go and get other people's contact information so they can keep planning to accomplish their goals?

Because just showing up is great but there has to be a next step, there must be tangible progress you can mark down as complete. Otherwise it's just a blow-off valve meant to release pent up anger and nothing will ever change.

tl;dr what should your goals be when you go to one of these things?
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 No.488619

>>488608
To answer, while the demonstration is for media attention/public pressure (as with any other), the focus has been more and more on recruitment these days. There were speakers from PYM, PSL, DSA, student unions, etc. and a common refrain you'll hear is to "get organized!".
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 No.488620

>>488619
>DSA
what are they gonna do
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 No.488632

>>488602
whats your point? that politics is a brutal life and death struggle? welcome to the real world muthafucka, no shit its a fucking geopolitical gang war, you think lenin and mao and fidel and uncle ho didnt know this shit? yet none of them waited for some mythical end of imperialism to come before the revolution by supporting this or that side in capitalist politics.
the communist states couldnt survive without repression and obsessive industrialization, and when the time came to move on they were totally lost. it wasnt because "muh imperialism" you fucking retard, that is a painfully boring and stupid excuse to not do the hard work needed to evolve and rebuild. you never win games by whining about how your enemies are bigger and stronger, you win by playing better.
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 No.488633

>>488602
>>488632
excuse my temper tantrum i will try to be a little more constructive in this post, you asked about alternatives that can be built here and now, this is the challenge we should be confronting
ive been thinking pretty long and hard about what it means to build alternatives especially when it comes to the developed capitalist world, ive come to the conclusion that we need to temporarily return to some kind of utopian socialism in order to experiment with new ideas even if they will inevitably be failures in the long run
as far as my own thinking goes bookchin and wolff look like good starting points, some kind of organized cooperative capitalist movement that can transition to market socialism after seizing state power, then that can transition into cybernetic socialism or whatever else makes sense
an idea ive been tinkering with is to split the party into one which builds the movement and one which participates in capitalist state politics, hopefully this would balance the need for independence with pragmatism
these ideas need to be put into practice though otherwise they are just fantasies, but even if they fail they can be useful learning experiences so that doesnt bother me too much
it would be nice if there was a leftist community that actually had an interest in throwing around ideas and testing them out rather than moaning and groaning about how all hope is lost and how voting for biden instead of trump is the le good and le socialist thing to do
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 No.488654

>>488632
>you think lenin and mao and fidel and uncle ho didnt know this shit? yet none of them waited for some mythical end of imperialism to come before the revolution by supporting this or that side in capitalist politics.
Lenin did revolution in Russia because that would pull a thread that would unravel the colonial empires. And it did exactly that. That was the opening or "space" he saw.
If the ruling class of the Russian empire had been as geo-politically astute as Lenin, they would have done it them selves, instead of going on a retarded adventure to get their navy sunk by the Japanese empire. And then there wouldn't have been a Russian revolution.

Go read machine translated blogs of Russian "communism with a bigger hammer" The ones that want to restore the Soviet Union and do "Stalinism with more steel". They did not like the current leadership of Russia, until it aggressively pushed back against imperialism. They changed their tune to: "well lets postpone the re-revolution, lets not disrupt them while they're doing a good thing"

>the communist states couldn't survive without repression and obsessive industrialization,

During that time people got to experience the utter barbarity of ruling classes (no offense to actual Barbarians intended). That's how you got ruthless revolutionaries that crushed any obstacle to improvements of material conditions with the "cudgel of historic necessity". But you have to be realistic about who we are. We don't enjoy inflicting pain or destruction, we do not enjoy dominating or bullying other people, we like to build stuff that makes people have a pleasant life. We're the ones that do civilization with extra padding. We can only have one generation of ruthless revolutionaries, the ones that come after, who have not experienced the brutality first hand, will not be as ruthless. The third generation will not be ruthless at all. If you want to bludgeon your way to a better world you have to do it in one go. You cannot indoctrinate communists to continue bulldozing ahead after you're gone, because the base impulse of every communist is to dissect ideology. There was never a possibility to convince the second and third generation of Soviet communists to try to destroy soc-dem capitalism with a human face in the US and Europe after WW2. They looked at the material conditions of workers in the west and thought: "eh good enough, improvements could be made but it's not worth spilling any blood over that, lets focus on doing our thing over here". We can't do an ideological crusade like the neocons. We don't have this thing that makes them go "civilize the savages" or "drop the human rights bombs" to in effect try to stamp out any aberration to their system.

We have to find out how that magic works that the Chinese are using where every attempt to weaken them, makes them stronger, and every attempt to draw them into a war and bloodshed enables them to expand peaceful trade and mutual cooperation. The last 10 years has seen US imperialism escalating an increasing rampage to destabilize the Chinese system, to somehow derail it's trajectory of growing prosperity and international cooperation. I think we have to find out how to do that too. As in gain energy from the attacks directed at us.
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 No.488655

>>488633
>it would be nice if there was a leftist community that actually had an interest in throwing around ideas and testing them out rather than moaning and groaning about how all hope is lost and how voting for biden instead of trump is the le good and le socialist thing to do
For the record Anti-imperialists opposed Sleepy Joe.

>you asked about alternatives that can be built here and now, this is the challenge we should be confronting

>ive been thinking pretty long and hard about what it means to build alternatives especially when it comes to the developed capitalist world,
>as far as my own thinking goes bookchin and wolff look like good starting points, some kind of organized cooperative capitalist movement that can transition to market socialism after seizing state power, then that can transition into cybernetic socialism or whatever else makes sense
an idea ive been tinkering with is to split the party into one which builds the movement and one which participates in capitalist state politics,
We could try Wolff's cooperatives, but you have to realize that you need to have coop-banks too, I can hear you grown finance socialism ??. But consider that capitalist banks do not give money capital to co-ops. People have tried a lot and got nowhere. They've likely gone much further than that, and they're no longuer just discriminating on ideological grounds, they likely categorize people and only give money-capital to a particular type of person with profitable character traits or whatever the actual euphemism is. So first step is coop-funding.
If this takes off and co-ops gain traction you cannot expect fair-play they will try to fuck with money flows of coops you know like sanctions but internally instead of internationally, so you need to have a means to insure money flows. They will also try to impede physical trade, like internal trade embargoes. You need to have a means to deal with that too.

>these ideas need to be put into practice though otherwise they are just fantasies, but even if they fail they can be useful learning experiences so that doesnt bother me too much

We can't build capital accumulation tread-mills with red paint. Meaning that we can't start cooperatives that then go under and enable regular capitalist to buy out the accumulated capital for below value. The system is extremely good at finding exploitable patterns like that. I'm trying to remember that asinine neo-liberal word they use to describe stripping companies bare and then tossing it. There is a tendency that specifically wants people to start businesses that are destined to fail, because failed businesses still contain some capital and capturing that is by it self a business model. Cannibalistic capitalism. Most people have a sense of this and will be extremely paranoid about investing their hopes and energies into such a dead end.

The "coop business plan" has to either avoid accumulating capital all-together, or have contingencies for every possible trick capitalist could possibly use to drain capital from it. Otherwise the hole thing will be stillborn. For example you have to analyze the regulatory frame-work and only depend on regulations that are vital to super-powerful capital interests so that you won't have the rug pulled from under you because there's an 800 pound gorilla standing on the same rug.
There is so much other stuff like patent-trolls and copy-monopoly-trolls that will try to drain your coop with predatory litigation. You have to factor in that if you succeed in navigating this "system obstacle course", and you're coop movement goes beyond a few failed upstart companies. The next level is monopoly capital taking notice that there is business activity going on that is not paying them any monopoly-rent. That's when they will begin to color outside the lines, by hiring saboteurs that undermine your operation. This is the level of mitigating industrial espionage/sabotage, that means you have to involve you're self with the state machinery and that's a hole n'other can of worms.

At the present moment in time there is a lot of dying imperial legacy capital, that is now violently thrashing around in it's death throws. So there is added difficulty, of avoiding getting trampled by giants.

Lets sum up all this friction in actually existing capitalism as "green-tape".

I have lots of "business ideas" that would lend them selves to coops. You know low capital investment, relative fast turn around, relatively low technical coefficient (in the Marxist sense), pretty good value-add per worker/part-owner (in the classical sense) and so on. While i think this would succeed in the kind of economy that is advertised in the official marketing material they give you, i don't know how you deal with the green tape that exists in reality. We might need some kind of think-tank that creates elaborate recipes.

I want to stress this once more, we really have to pay attention to avoid parasitic capital drain. If worker coops are nothing but yet another grind without reward, it'll die. People can smell that from a mile away.
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 No.488658

>>488655
>you need to have coop-banks too
totally agree i include that under the meaning of cooperative capitalism, this means housing coops too and so on
also agree that it has to be international movement
>we can't start cooperatives that then go under and enable regular capitalist to buy out the accumulated capital for below value
hence the importance of the party, though im still working this aspect out

of course there will be significant hurdles, but thats not the main point, my interest in cooperative capitalism is
1. it secures a potential base of funds that are independent of the capitalist class
2. it gives us direct and obvious proof that workers can run things more or less on their own
3. it trains workers on the basic principles of organizing
4. it gives us a way to lift lumpens (homeless, prostitutes, etc) out of their situation and into one of solidarity with workers
5. state intervention of some form will be unavoidable, but ultimately its very unlikely to attract state violence especially in the developed world
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 No.488679

>>488619
>a common refrain you'll hear is to "get organized!"
good.
>student unions
Unions are great. Every worker should be unionized.

However

>PSL, DSA

This is where it gets tricky. These organizations haven't shown themselves to be very effective. It could be that they soak up revolutionary energy and nullify it. I'm just saying that's a possibility.

Right now the important thing is for leftists to be in contact with other leftists. I suppose working with imperfect orgs is way better than nothing. But very soon I hope a broader more effective structure emerges.
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 No.488680

>>488679
One more thing, organizing shouldn't involve paying money for anything other than your own expenses for projects your team is doing. If there's something concrete they want, they can set up a fundraiser for it.

I know these parties want you to pay them for newspapers and have a subscription model, but I really think they don't deserve it. More like… if it's a volunteer effort and I am volunteering I am already paying with my time.

If they want to generate money they have to produce something.
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 No.488684

>>488679
Tbh the PSL is at least good at campaigning, their numbers in the 2024 election were like the highest any ML party has ever had in the US. Their mutual aid/outreach stuff is also a step in the right direction.

That said… the protest movement in the US has obviously failed to seize public anger and direct it into decisive action which can meet the urgency of the situation, and PSL, however much I respect them compared to the DSA (who don't even bring the kind of protest energy the PSL does, let alone anything more concrete), is not about to carry out the actions that are called for. We absolutely need new organizations devoted to that, and if I had the money I would put it towards defensive local organizing and decisive blows against the organs of state engaged in genocide. I feel a fucking fire inside which isn't satisfied by marching and making demands of those evil bastards in charge who won't listen, and it's not satisfied by posting about it either. The frustration that comes with knowing there are others who feel the same, but almost exclusively encountering people who are unwilling to act is profound. I'm sick of wasting time.
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 No.488685

>>488684
I'll also add, and this is a bit mean, but it's difficult to think of a greater indictment of the American opposition than the fact that Trump did more to wreck the US economy in like a day than people who spent over a year protesting and calling for strikes and (very) temporarily shutting down roads & ports with protests did. Like, nobody can say we didn't have time to pool resources for something big. Nobody can say we didn't have time to make real plans to take out arms factories and damage the infrastructure of genocide financiers on a large scale. Thinking about the kind of stuff the American orgs didn't want to do because they wanted to avoid breaking the law genuinely pisses me off.
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 No.488686

>>488684
>>488685
>The fact that Trump did more to wreck the US economy in like a day
That might be a culmination of features built into capitalism itself all coming to a conclusion. I wouldn't necessarily compare what protestors can do at current levels of organization with what capitalism can do to itself.

I'm reminded by a quote from Lord of the Rings:

>Strange powers have our enemies, and strange weaknesses! said Théoden.

>But it has long been said: oft evil will shall evil mar
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 No.488689

>>488686
I mean, there was gonna be a recession hitting between January and March 2026, anyway, sure, but Trump did kinda give it a big boost.

What I'm not seeing that much of is a real effort to prepare for an action which could cause damage like that. In the time the protestors have been protesting, we could at least have built something able to do much more damage than we did.

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