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/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

"The anons of the past have only shitposted on the Internets about the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it."
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 No.486558

We need Communism, but fuck being outside the ruling class in a Communist society.
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 No.486559

>>486558
Early on work out which senior party member has the best chance of ending up as the leader post-revolution and suck their dick relentlessly. It's that simple.
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 No.486560

I don't know, do something useful which will make communication and distribution more equitable and maximally receptive to the public need. You'll find that you're in the "ruling class" and so are the rest of the workers.
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 No.486567

>We need a system where everyone is equal, but fuck being outside the separate caste of people who are above everyone else.
And this is why communism is a joke.
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 No.486568

>>486567
Because someone (you) posted an obvious strawman and replied to themselves agreeing with it?
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 No.486605

>>486558
In a democratic society all you would have to do is participate in your communities.
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 No.486810

>>486558
kys and get buried underground. thats where the ruling class will be
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 No.486811

>>486810
Holy Fucking based.
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 No.486906

>>486568
>Because someone (you) posted an obvious strawman
It's not a strawman when that's literally what happened in every large scale attempt at implementing communism. You centralize the means of production under the state and then are shocked to find that the state bureaucrats are now the new ruling class.

>>486605
>In a democratic society all you would have to do is participate in your communities.
Russians are so retarded they should have just voted stalin out of office. Like just vote for the good guy next time it's not hard.
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 No.486907

>>486906
>It's not a strawman when I do a strawman because I've convinced myself that my strawman is accurate
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 No.486909

>>486907
>It's not a strawman when I do a strawman because I've convinced myself that my strawman is accurate
<It's not a strawman when that's literally what happened in every large scale attempt at implementing communism.
USSR, CCP, North Korea, Cambodia, Cuba… the ball is in your court here dude if you think there is an obvious counter example then tell us what it is. It would be faster and more productive than typing up fake greentext while blinking back tears.
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 No.486911

>>486909
What point are you actually trying to make? Because you're calling communism a joke, so clearly you don't understand what communism is. Next please tell me that Cuba is somehow less democratic than the United States, so I can lol at you.
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 No.486912

>>486911
>What point are you actually trying to make?
You centralize the means of production under the state and then are shocked to find that the state bureaucrats are now the new ruling class. Communism doesn't eliminate class or wealth inequality it just moves the goal posts around. That's literally what happened in every large scale attempt at implementing communism.

>Because you're calling communism a joke

That wasn't me. He's not wrong though.

>clearly you don't understand what communism is

You're the one who doesn't understand what communism is. Sure you read the sales brochure but now you need to read a history book because reality is not the same as theory.

Or to put it another way, if you are going to ignore facts and logic and historical evidence and only focus on what the theory promises to deliver then there are much better fairy tales to put your blind faith in than communism. The christians promise heaven and eternal life for example.

>please tell me that Cuba is somehow less democratic than the United States

That's a very low bar but yes Cuba manages to slither under it
<Cuba has had a socialist political system since 1961 based on the "one state – one party" principle. Cuba is constitutionally defined as a single party Marxist–Leninist socialist republic
<Political scientists characterize the political system of Cuba as a single-party authoritarian regime where political opposition is not permitted. There are elections in Cuba, but they are not considered democratic. According to the V-Dem Democracy indices, Cuba is the second least electoral democratic country in Latin America. Censorship of information (including limits to internet access) is extensive, and independent journalism is repressed in Cuba; Reporters Without Borders has characterized Cuba as one of the worst countries in the world for press freedom.
https://wl.vern.cc/wiki/Politics_of_Cuba
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 No.486913

>>486906
>It's not a strawman when that's literally what happened in every large scale attempt at implementing communism. You centralize the means of production under the state and then are shocked to find that the state bureaucrats are now the new ruling class.
What happened in the Soviet type socialism was stratification and that probably wasn't desirable, but they did not have class division. Just look at their wealth distribution. Stalin probably was the most powerful guy and he made less than a doctor or an engineer.
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 No.486918

>>486912
>now the new ruling class
For that to be the case you have to have class antagonisms, which aren't really present when you have a Marxist government that works to benefit its people instead of the bourgeoisie.

>historical evidence

The success of every state that tried socialism speaks for itself. China is leading the world in almost everything that matters, the USSR did as well.

Also the fact that you're linking me to a wikipedia article (which is hilariously biased and your quote is basically "it's bad because we said so") means you haven't bothered to read up on how Cuba runs it's own country. The reality is that it's a model for us to emulate for how democracy should work.
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 No.486920

File: 1736968619047.jpg ( 109.13 KB , 1200x712 , only fans.jpg )

>>486912
>You centralize the means of production under the state and then are shocked to find that the state bureaucrats are now the new ruling class. Communism doesn't eliminate class or wealth inequality it just moves the goal posts around. That's literally what happened in every large scale attempt at implementing communism.
During the last century all the communist projects went for economic state centralization, because they immediately came under siege, by the capitalist powers. Under these hostile conditions that likely was the only way to pursue industrial development. These systems did a reasonably good job in bringing down wealth inequality. Wealth inequality was really low in the Soviet type systems. I guess it's fair to say that the Soviet type systems did not succeed in entrenching working class political empowerment.

>Cuba

>not considered democratic.
Well it depends, Cuba has resisted US attempts at regime change, and some very cynical people consider Cuba undemocratic for that reason.
It's difficult to get unbiased information (the majority of information is ridiculess propaganda). But if you go by reasonable sources Cuba usually is considered to be very democratic, in the original sense where the state does what the demos wants. I'll admit that systemically Soviet type leadership democracies don't score very high on "democratic-ness" but it still out-competes many bourgeois democracies.

I don't know what to say about the question of press freedom, try going on mainstream media and point out that Israel is committing a genocide, or that the Banderites in Ukraine have an ideology that eerily resembles that of the Nazi type fascists during WW2. You can do that in Cuba with no friction but in the West that is rather difficult. I guess it's fair to say that if the influence of the neocon and the zionist lobby was removed in the west, we could reasonably claim to have better press freedom than Cuba. But as it stands now, it feels like hypocrisy to take a jab at Cuba on the matter of press freedom.

>OnlyFans vs Labor theory of value

LTV is not being contradicted by Only Fans, wtf ?
LTV does correlate with commodity prices.
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 No.486931

>>486912
>>486920
Yeah whoever made that only fans meme has no idea what they're talking about.
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 No.486936

>>486920
>in the original sense where the state does what the demos wants
Please stop projecting Orwellian liberal propaganda onto history. That is absolutely not the "original sense" of democracy. Greek tyrants may have sometimes been the good guys protecting the demos from the depredations of creditors, but nobody considered them democrats. Likewise Athens got up to some really nasty shit during the Peloponnesian War, including their foolish war against Syracuse and attacking the island of Melos for being neutral where they killed all the men and sold the women and children into slavery. Democracy is not about outcomes, it's about how you govern. The original sense of democracy is very literal, it's when the people do the ruling.
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 No.486938

>>486936
Ahem, although I should note that the there is uncertainty over whether the atrocities at Melos were done at the command of the Athenian government or one of its generals.
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 No.486949

>>486936
>That is absolutely not the "original sense"
>The original sense of democracy is very literal, it's when the people do the ruling.
Fair enough

>Greek tyrants may have sometimes been the good guys protecting the demos from the depredations of creditors, but nobody considered them democrats.

People who write history books from the ruling class perspective have a tendency to label political leaders that acted in the interest of the people as tyrants. Are you sure that these "Greek tyrants" actually were tyrannical ? Analogous to how every democratically elected social democrat in Latin America becomes a "dictator" and modest social welfare reforms are "reigns of terror".
I haven't invested ancient history in much detail, and can't really tell one way of another, but did you make sure that the history books you read were not ideologically biased ?
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 No.486950

File: 1737053166982.png ( 440.47 KB , 600x679 , 1729993581045.png )

>>486913
>What happened in the Soviet type socialism was stratification and that probably wasn't desirable, but they did not have class division.
That's not true at all. The average soviet citizen waited decades for housing and automobiles while party members got the best houses and cars right away.

>Stalin probably was the most powerful guy and he made less than a doctor or an engineer.

lol that's the lefty equivalent of believing Hitler was celibate because he was so dedicated to "the cause". You're smarter than that.

>>486918
>For that to be the case you have to have class antagonisms, which aren't really present when you have a Marxist government that works to benefit its people instead of the bourgeoisie.
Communist regimes had to run over their own people with tanks to keep them inline. Just because most of the time people were too scared to dissent doesn't mean they were happy.

>China is leading the world in almost everything that matters

Only after they scraped communism and allowed private property again. Even then most of china's "success" is down to slave labor tell me your favorite chinese union and IP theft and the same short sighted fiat currency manipulation that is fucking over the west.

>the USSR did as well.

Except they ran out of money and disbanded with none of the new states keeping any of the communist policies. The only thing the USSR proved is that a command economy can do one thing and only one thing well, in their case building the biggest military and stockpiling the most nuclear weapons while your people literally starved to death.

>your quote is basically "it's bad because we said so"

It's not "bad" it's undemocratic. And it is undemocratic because there is only one political party and voter information is tightly controlled by the state.

>>486920
>During the last century all the communist projects went for economic state centralization, because they immediately came under siege, by the capitalist powers.
It's the only way to do it if you think about it. Giving the MoP directly to the people just means nobody will work and the project will not even get off the ground. Having an ultra-authoritarian state turn the citizens into slave laborers is the only way to get any productivity at all after private property has been abolished.

>Wealth inequality was really low in the Soviet type systems.

Inequality between worthless peasants perhaps but not inequality between the worthless peasants and the people running the state. That is the wrong metric to fetishize anyway. You would prefer that everyone has a bicycle rather than have a Mustang and let your neighbor have a Ferrari? Imagine basing your entire moral philosophy on envy and pettiness.

>some very cynical people consider Cuba undemocratic for that reason

You're just as bad as the other guy. I gave you the reasons if you can't attack the actual argument then go away and think about it instead of making up fake arguments you do know how to attack.

>the state does what the demos wants

Because the demos loves living in poverty with no internet and their only hope of escape is to risk their lives rafting to Florida which many eventually end up attempting.

>try going on mainstream media and point out that Israel is committing a genocide, or that the Banderites in Ukraine have an ideology that eerily resembles that of the Nazi type fascists during WW2

You can do both those things on TikTok and X. And more importantly if you setup your own website to publish this information the state won't kick your door down and drag you to a jailcell. State censorship in places like Cuba is not "oh no the billionaire who owns facebook deleted my post" it's "you're in jail now for disagreeing with the government".

>LTV is not being contradicted by Only Fans, wtf ?

A female who won the birth lottery shows her ass on Only Fans for 2 minutes and makes more money than a school teacher earns in a year. How do you still pretend that value comes from labor in this scenario?
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 No.486951

>>486949
>Are you sure that these "Greek tyrants" actually were tyrannical ?
That was exactly the point of the sentence you're responding to. Like democracy, autocratic rulers were sometimes capable of doing nice things for their demos. Michael Hudson points out in his recent book The Collapse of Antiquity that many of the Greek tyrants of the 7th century where dissident aristocrats who exploited anger against the nobility to seize power, and then instated populist reforms which would later pave the way for the development of democracies. Alternatively, you could have despotic tyrants like Dionysius of Syracuse who overthrew the Syracusan democracy and established a terror regime of cruelty and vindictiveness. The point is that you should define forms of government based on how the governing is done, not their outcomes. Especially when invoking the ancient, original definitions.
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 No.486952

File: 1737054230618.jpg ( 83.86 KB , 905x942 , spooked.jpg )

>>486950
>IP theft
Spookiest spook that ever spooked.
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 No.486965

>>486950
>That's not true at all. The average soviet citizen waited decades for housing and automobiles while party members got the best houses and cars right away.
You are overstating your case a little, the delays weren't that bad. However you are not entirely wrong the soviet system didn't do particularly well for consumer items. You definitely can't organize the production of consumer goods like heavy industry. You are entirely wrong about Soviet housing tho, that was a massive success. Capitalist countries that had a wealth and development level comparable to the Soviet system had over 50% of their population living in slums. The Soviet apparent blocks were small and the massive cement housing units were dull and dreary, but they had reliable electricity, heating, fresh water, plumbing and some degree of personal space. Slums didn't have that and mostly don't to this day.

>lol that's the lefty equivalent of believing Hitler was

What the ? Oh i get it, Hitler must be compared to Stalin. It's ideologically mandatory, no matter how nonsensical.

>It's the only way to do it if you think about it. Giving the MoP directly to the people just means nobody will work and the project will not even get off the ground. Having an ultra-authoritarian state turn the citizens into slave laborers is the only way to get any productivity at all after private property has been abolished.

<Public sector economy is slavery
Now you're just trolling.
It is somewhat true that the Soviets never reached the communist goal of organizing the economy without wage-labor, but that isn't slavery. Your grasp on economic relations is dogshit.

>Inequality between worthless peasants perhaps but not inequality between the worthless peasants and the people running the state. That is the wrong metric to fetishize anyway. You would prefer that everyone has a bicycle rather than have a Mustang and let your neighbor have a Ferrari?

It's true that Soviet cars were boring and less sophisticated, but the Soviets had amazing public transport. I'm not convinced this difference was caused by economic ideology. Russia is geographically enormous and maintaining a nice road system that would have generated a car culture like in the US and Europe was impractical. You need nice roads to get good cars, if the roads suck nobody cares about cars, and everybody prefers riding the train.
The rise in inequality in the west means that fewer people will be able to afford a car, once most people have no choice but to ride the buss, most people will no longer care about car infrastructure and that means all the rich people with their fancy cars will have no place to drive anymore.

>You're just as bad as the other guy. I gave you the reasons if you can't attack the actual argument then go away and think about it instead of making up fake arguments you do know how to attack.

I don't get why you trash talk the Cubans. Their Socialist system is infinitely better than that butcher Batista they overthrew. And given the conditions imposed on Cuba by the economic blockade, they are doing surprisingly well.

>Because the demos loves living in poverty with no internet and their only hope of escape is to risk their lives rafting to Florida which many eventually end up attempting.

Cuba is a tiny island being bullied by a huge superpower. They can't have nice things because the US blocks them from trading. The problem is caused by the US government not the Cuban one. The irony is that the Cubans probably would have done some Dengism type market liberalization mirroring China, if it weren't for the embargo.

>You can do both those things on TikTok and X. And more importantly if you setup your own website to publish this information the state won't kick your door down and drag you to a jailcell.

That has literally happened in the west, people have been arrested and charged with terrorism for fucking tweets. The worst is probably the UK especially since Starmer slithered into power. Another egregious example that comes to mind was in Germany were a elderly Jewish lady got arrested for holding up a sign that said "Jews against genocide" and they tried to charge her with inciting antisemitism.

>State censorship in places like Cuba is not "oh no the billionaire who owns facebook deleted my post" it's "you're in jail now for disagreeing with the government".

I already conceded the point that bourgeois free-speech as in free market press is structurally better than Soviet style press. But the west is no longer upholding bourgeois press freedoms. As long as the Zionist lobby can rampage through the western political system, you can forget about riding your high horse.
If you count Israel as part of the western sphere, they're breaking records in killing journalists, their "military censor" is worse than anything the 20th century soviets type state censors have done by like an order of magnitude. They arrested an American freelance journalist for covering the missile impacts in Israel during the brief exchange of hostilities with Iran a few months ago. He published a video that showed the exact same missile crater as was shown on mainstream media and for that they tried to charge him with treason. He probably only got out because of political pressure.

>A female who won the birth lottery shows her ass on Only Fans for 2 minutes and makes more money than a school teacher earns in a year. How do you still pretend that value comes from labor in this scenario?

The average income from e-thotting is something like 100-200 bucks a month, and it doesn't last long, maybe a couple of years or so. Economically it's simulated intimacy as a service. I guess in econ-technical terms it's non-productive-labor because the sensation of intimacy is fleeting or something, and there is no accumulation happening. I do get that this is late stage capitalism dystopian stuff that seems like it could belong in a cyberpunk novel from the 80s. I understand that a lot of it is scammy models and psychologically abusive customers. I guess it's not all bad either, there was a lot more violence in strip-clubs.

However all of this has very little to do with the Labor theory of value, which states that average commodity prices correlate with the average labor inputs in production. When you follow this line of argument all the way to the end you'll end up trying to disprove labor theory of value by saying that in capitalism profits aren't evenly distributed. We can now argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, by pointing out that there is a specific sub-current of Marxist economists that do uphold profit equalization, which probably is wrong, but since that isn't necessary to prove the Labor-theory of value, this is a rather pointless exercise in tedium.
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 No.486966

>>486950
>Only after they scraped communism and allowed private property again.
They allowed capitalist elements because bribing western capitalism by letting it exploit Chinese workers for a few decades was preferable to fighting off imperial invasions.

>Even then most of china's "success" is down to slave labor

Labor conditions in china were bad but it's improving. Labor conditions in the west have been better but it's deteriorating.

>IP theft

"Intellectual property" is nothing more that monopoly privileges. All the neo-liberal economists that went to China in the 70s to proselytize the free market, guess what, the Chinese took them by their word. >>486952 is correct.

>and the same short sighted fiat currency manipulation that is fucking over the west

I think it's true that China does have the ability to controle the exchange rate of their currency, and they very likely do use it, probably to keep the prices of their exports stable. However that doesn't compare to what the US has done with it's controle over the world reserve currency.
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 No.486967

>>486951
>That was exactly the point of the sentence you're responding to. Like democracy, autocratic rulers were sometimes capable of doing nice things for their demos. Michael Hudson points out in his recent book The Collapse of Antiquity that many of the Greek tyrants of the 7th century where dissident aristocrats who exploited anger against the nobility to seize power, and then instated populist reforms which would later pave the way for the development of democracies. Alternatively, you could have despotic tyrants like Dionysius of Syracuse who overthrew the Syracusan democracy and established a terror regime of cruelty and vindictiveness. The point is that you should define forms of government based on how the governing is done, not their outcomes.
Maybe i'm being extra dense, but isn't the dissident aristocrats seizing power to pave the way for democracy, a desirable outcome ?
I guess what i'm saying here is that i don't understand how you distinguish
<how the governing is done
from
<their outcomes.

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