/leftypol/ - Leftist Politically Incorrect

>>476181
>>476182
that guy is parroting so many CIA talking points, he might be actually be a paid shill. Stop giving him attention economy points.

>>476185
zigga, establishing a timeline of the events is not a CIA talking point kek

It's just an objective FACT OF LIFE that shelling of muh donbassians and burning of muh odessians started AFTER Russkia seized Crimea and literal russkie nazoids like Strelkov started shit in Donbas

your ass is gonna get obliterated in ANY DEBATE on these points kek

>>476185
>he might be actually be a paid shill
he might

but zigger faggots like Haz and Hinkle are ALREADY PROVEN RUSSKIE PAID SHILLS KEK

And again, looking as that Eddie dumbfuck was literally reading from a list of zigger talking points that is FUCKING WORD-FOR-WORD equvalent to zigger talking points that get spammed on this board - I'm betting that dumbfuck is a paid russkie shill too.

>>476183
>Which makes me think that those ziggers are all a product of an organized effort.
>After all, we know that Haz and Hinkle are 100% paid russkie shills.
If the Ukraine war has shown anything, it's that Russia sucks at projecting soft-power propaganda into the western sphere, where they couldn't even win the argument when they were destroying Azov Nazis with big Swastika tatoos.

The people that are opposed to NATO east expansion aren't part of a Russian conspiracy, they're just people who would rather have wellfare-programs than war-spendding.

There was a time when a part of the spoils of imperialism was used to fund a few gibs for the masses. That's when the soc-dems played along. Then came the time when the gibs for the masses dried out and the masses didn't get anything, but also didn't loose anything. That resulted to political indifference. And now imperialism comes at a cost for the masses, via rising cost of living while standards of living are declining, and of course attacks on civil liberties. That's what motivates people to oppose NATO and proxy wars and so on.

The concerted attempt at using crazy Russia-gate-conspiracies to slander those people who express political opinions that are in line with their interests, is very undemocratic.

Zigger narrative is just so fucking weak that humiliating them in a debate is like stealing a candy from a child kek.

All they can plausibly argue is that Maidan got coopted by the US with sponsored right-wing militias. But if they try to argue that Ukraine became a Nazi state they immediately get obliterated by the simple fact that the nazi militias got pushed away from the state apparatus after Maidan succeeded.

Ukraine is not a US puppet state, it doesn't needs to be. The anti-russkie element was a MAJORITY in Ukraine, especially among the educated political class.

So all ziggers are left with is fucking muh blood and soil narrative kek. Good luck convincing majority of leftists with this lmao.

>>476190
>The people that are opposed to NATO
How can you oppose NATO when your actions DIRECTLY ENABLED the further expansion of NATO, zigger?

>>476190
>The concerted attempt at using crazy Russia-gate-conspiracies to slander those people who express political opinions that are in line with their interests, is very undemocratic.
Being a paid russkie shill has nothing to do with democracy, zigger.

Politicians who took bribes from Macedon were fucking TRIED FOR TREASON in Athens.

>>476191
so azov and kraken are not nazi militias?

>>476194
>nazi militias got pushed away from the state apparatus after Maidan succeeded
<so azov and kraken are not nazi militias?
zigger brain everyone

>>476195
well azov and kraken figures are literally in the government
either you're ignoring that or you're trying to deny that they are nazis

>>476196
so minor isolated nazi elements in the SBU and VSU make Ukraine a nazi state now?

what about when the leaders of the Pravy Sector got persecuted for terrorizing people?

>>476187
>establishing a timeline of the events is not a CIA talking point.
It can be, propaganda also tries to obfuscate relevant context. Like the Ukraine conflict having been created by NATO east expansion.

>shelling of muh donbassians and burning of muh odessians started AFTER Russkia seized Crimea.
The US backed the extremist right in Ukraine and helped them into power. The population in Crimea absolutely despises these people, that's why Russia managed to get Crimea. The Russians wanted that strategical warm-water-port and the Crimeans wanted to remove them selves from the political influence of the Banderite right extremists. The Russians did not take crimea, the US gave them crimea.

The excuses why the Ukrainian state bombed their own citizens is just ethno-nationalists tying them selves into knots. They wanted bomb to Donbass to drive out the Russo-phile population out to Ukranianize the Donbass according to the vision of Banderites. I don't understand why you would support this, you're never going establish a moral high-ground for preaching on the basis of violent population displacement, nobody wants to be driven from their home. This shit with the hard-right proxies doesn't even win Geo-strategical power struggles anymore. Why are you makeing this your hill to die on ? it makes no sense.

>>476188
I haven't really paid any attention to Haz and Hinkle recently, but the fact that you want to Russia-gate them so hard, makes me think i should check them out.

You have to understand that so many people who are solid leftists got slandered as "Kremlin-puppets", that such accusations can now be interpreted as an endorsement.

>>476192
>How can you oppose NATO
I don't think that NATO would act as a defense pact if push comes to shove. I see Nato as an organization that lobbies for the arms industry and it's a tool for the US to impose it's foreign policy on Europe.

>your actions DIRECTLY ENABLED the further expansion of NATO
Lol, I wish my actions could shape global events, but thanks anyway.

>>476193
>Being a paid shill … blabla
I guess you speak from experience

>>476198
>It can be, propaganda also tries to obfuscate relevant context.
<It is propaganda when you establish a timeline of the events
yeah zigga, reality itself is CIA propaganda kek, the force of gravity is fucking propaganda

>The US backed the extremist right in Ukraine
yes

>and helped them into power
no

US (together with ukro capitalists like Kolomoisky) used right-wingers as shock troops against the law enforcement apparatus

nothing more

>The population in Crimea absolutely despises these people, that's why Russia managed to get Crimea.
yes, crimeans didn't like Maidan

>The Russians did not take crimea, the US gave them crimea.
The US DID NOT ORCHESTRATE MAIDAN DUMBFUCK, IT COOPTED IT

>The excuses why the Ukrainian state bombed their own citizens
Is because russkie nazoids started an ethnic conflict in Donbass.

>Why are you makeing this your hill to die on ? it makes no sense.
the only one dying on the hill of muh blood and soil muh cultural genocide is you nazoid dumbfuck lol

>>476197
>so minor isolated nazi elements in the SBU and VSU
<a little bit of Nazi-collaborationism is ok.
Nobody cares about Nazi-larp at the fringes, but giving these people power, weapons and funding, that's a different matter.

>make Ukraine a nazi state now?
Ukraine began looking like fascism once they started banning loads of political parties and talking about not holding elections.

>>476200
>but the fact that you want to Russia-gate them so hard
keep crying victim as Hinkle goes to Russkia to speak at their main propaganda outlet kek

>>476201
>I don't think that NATO would act as a defense pact if push comes to shove.
You don't understand how NATO members are OBLIGED to go to war with a state that attacks one of its members?

>Lol, I wish my actions could shape global events, but thanks anyway.
playing dumb zigga? Ok.

HOW IS RUSSIAN INVASION ANTI-NATO WHEN IT DIRECTLY ENABLED THE FURTHER EXPANSION OF NATO?

>>476202
zigga, Hinkle is a fucking PROVEN russkie paid shill

even fucking Caleb tried to distance himself from him kek

>>476206
>You don't understand how NATO members are OBLIGED to go to war with a state that attacks one of its members?
Who is going to make them? You don't understand that pacts are just pieces of paper.

>>476203
>It is propaganda when you establish a timeline of the events
I think it's propaganda because you leave out relevant context, you know lying by omission.
>reality itself is CIA propaganda
TF. You must be in deep if you think CIA propaganda is reality itself.

>US (together with ukro capitalists like Kolomoisky) used right-wingers as shock troops against the law enforcement apparatus nothing more
<Us used right-wingers to overthrow the Ukrainian state
Kudos for admitting to the CIA color revultion regime change operation
Now go listen to the phone-call with Victoria Nuland where they talk about who to put in power.

>The US DID NOT ORCHESTRATE MAIDAN, IT COOPTED IT
and that set off a motion of events that split off Crimea from Ukraine. And made it fall into Russia's lab

>The other side started an ethnic conflict
Nah it was definitely the US backing the Bandera-wing, that set this off.

>>476204
>Nobody cares about Nazi-larp at the fringes
but that's literally what Ukraine has lol

>but giving these people power, weapons and funding
how about you look into the mirror dumbfuck

russkies prop their right wingers too, to such an extent that it literally backfired on retards kek

those nazoids wouldn't be so big IF IT WASN'T FOR A FUCKING WAR IN DONBASS YOU DUMBFUCK

>Ukraine began looking like fascism once they started banning loads of political parties and talking about not holding elections.
So Ukraine wasn't "looking like fascism" before Russkie Invasion lol?

>>476208
>Who is going to make them?
The US and its pro-war allies? lol

>You don't understand that pacts are just pieces of paper.
holy shit zigga quit embarrassing yourself

yeah, NATO pact is just a piece of paper kek

>>476209
>TF. You must be in deep if you think CIA propaganda is reality itself.
pretending to be retarded zigga?

It is YOU who thinks objective reality itself (ie a timeline of the events) is propaganda lol.

>Kudos for admitting to the CIA color revultion regime change operation
Yes, the US helped a regime change, from pro-russkie Yanuk to pro-west post-Maidan government. Problems, zigga?

>and that set off a motion of events that split off Crimea from Ukraine. And made it fall into Russia's lab
yes. Problems, zigga?

>Nah it was definitely the US backing the Bandera-wing, that set this off.
What "Nah" dumbfuck?

Russia started AN ETHNIC CONFLICT IN DONBASS as a reaction to the pro-russkie Yanuk getting the boot as a result of US sponsored Maidan lol.

It was the US FIRST that acted to undermine the pro-russkie status quo, but it was Russkia that STARTED AN ETHNIC CONFLICT FIRST KEK.

That's just the reality zigga, you're gonna DIE on this hill.

>>476206
>You don't understand how NATO members are OBLIGED
You're a fool, nobody is going to "oblige" the US to do something they don't want to do. You're not going to shackle a superpower with treaty-papers.

The original point of NATO was about creating military containment against the USSR, all those NATO treaty clauses were in alignment with US strategy during that time. However today US strategy has changed, they want sacrificial pawns that can be sacrificed to implicate rival powers in costly wars to weaken them. In that context the mutual defense clauses run counter to US strategy. The US wants to sacrifice those pawns precisely because they don't want to send US troops. If the NATO treaty obligations collide with US strategy, the treaty obligations will get bulldozed out of the way.

Ziggas only problem is that somebody DARED to undermine the Yanuk government kek. And that justifies starting a fucking ethnic conflict in Donbass that spiraled out into the fucking all out war with hundreds of thousands of casualties and led to further expansion of NATO kek.

NEVER DEBATE ANYONE ZIGGA LOL. YOUR OPPONENT WOULD WIPE THE FLOOR WITH YOUR ASS KEK.

>>476213
>You're a fool, nobody is going to "oblige" the US to do something they don't want to do.
US is a hegemon in an alliance, dumbfuck.

It would be the US with other militarist members (like UK and Poland) that "obliges" other members, dumbfuck.

Good luck ignoring """a piece of paper""" THEN LOL

>The original point of NATO was about creating military containment against the USSR
It doesn't matter what the stated "original point" was

NATO is the offensive military alliance of the CORE capitalist states

keep coping dumbfuck

>>476207
>Hinkle is a fucking PROVEN russkie paid shill even fucking Caleb tried to distance himself from him.
Fine, maybe i'll look into it.

There was such an insane amount of Russia-gate nonsense going on where everybody who disagreed with mainline politics on some issue got accused of being a "Russian bot". Anti-witch-hunting heuristics had to be switched on.

I consider the chances that this particular accusation you are making now, turns out to not be a political smear, to be very small, still.

>>476210
No the Ukro nazis got funding, weapons and training from the CIA, and turned into a paramilitary force.

From what i could gather it seems that the Russians sided with "soviet-soc-dems" in Donetsk and Luhansk. Basically people who had politics similar to Belarus.

>blame the Russians for Ukraine abandoning bourgeois democracy.
No. You either uphold democracy or you don't.

>>476217
>No the Ukro nazis got funding, weapons and training from the CIA, and turned into a paramilitary force.
So?

>From what i could gather blah-blah
you "gathered" it wrong

russkia funds its own righoutid freicorp paras the same as ukraine

>blame the Russians for Ukraine abandoning bourgeois democracy.
zygoid, I don't give a FUCK about parliamentarism

you're the one who is crying about muh proper parliamentary procedures dumbfuck

>>476217
Basically your position that it's okay to start ethnic conflict because of the violated parliamentary procedures kek.

>>476212
>I'm the arbiter of what is objective reality
No, fuck off.

>the US helped a regime change
<semantics
whatever, this is what started it

>>476216
hey dumbfuck, you understand that fucking Maupoid is a russkie paid shill too?

that's what fucking hilarious when he tries to distance himself from fucking Hinkle lol

fucking fashoid retarded spergs kek

>>476223
>I'm the arbiter of what is objective reality
nazoid, you understand that there can be only ONE OBJECTIVE reality, right?

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE TIMELINE OF THE EVENTS DUMBFUCKOID

>whatever, this is what started it
I got you, violated parliamentary procedures justifies starting ethnic conflict lol

>>476215
>NATO obligations are a one-way-street, that exclusively benefit Washington.
That's probably true, but then it makes sense for other countries to NATO-exit if the shit hits the fan.

>>476219
I have no reason to believe any of your accusations.

>>476221
>loaded question
You want to have an excuse to be able to abandon democracy by appealing to a boogeyman. Like some sort of good weather democracy, that can't be used if it rains.
The fact is that it's not a democracy if you can turn it on and off. It's only a democracy if it's the bed-rock of all political power.

>>476226
>you understand that there can be only ONE OBJECTIVE reality, right?
Yes and you're narratives don't reflect that singular objective reality.

>violated parliamentary procedures
banning political parties and trying to abolish elections is a little more than violating procedures, it's abolishing democracy

>starting ethnic conflict
The US invaded Ukraine with convert-warfare CIA-forces and that started an ethnic conflict by supporting ethno-nationalists with weapons, funds and training.

>>476227
>NATO obligations are a one-way-street, that exclusively benefit Washington.
That's not what I said dumbfuck.

NATO benefits core capitalist countries.

>it makes sense for other countries to NATO-exit if the shit hits the fan.
it makes no sense dumbfuck

when shit hits the fan everyone would understand that you need to pick a side dumbfuck

that's why it is called world wars and why even Canada and Australia took part in them dumbfuck

>I have no reason to believe any of your accusations.
meh. whatever, zygoid

>You want to have an excuse to be able to abandon democracy by appealing to a boogeyman.
parliamentarism is not democracy, nazoid

democracy has a class character

parliamentarism doesn't give you an excuse to start an ethnic war, dumbfuck liberoid

>>476225
>Maupoid is a russkie paid shill
You are making an accusation, and there is no reason for me to believe you. This stuff gets used for smear tactics so frequently that my default assumption has to be that it's a smear until proven to the contrary.

>>476228
>Yes and you're narratives don't reflect that singular objective reality.
does shelling of donbass started before russkia started shit in donbass or not?

>banning political parties and trying to abolish elections is a little more than violating procedures, it's abolishing democracy
elections are not democracy lib

parliamentarism doesn't give you an excuse to start an ethnic war

>The US invaded Ukraine with convert-warfare CIA-forces and that started an ethnic conflict by supporting ethno-nationalists with weapons, funds and training.
The US violated "proper" parliamentary politics.

It was Russkia who started the ethnic war.

>>476230
>You are making an accusation, and there is no reason for me to believe you.
I don't give a fuck what you believe lol.

Why do you even care if he takes money from russkies or not lol?

>>476229
>NATO benefits core capitalist countries.
I think the core has shrunk and Europe ain't in it anymore

>when shit hits the fan everyone would understand that you need to pick a side
If the neocons throw enough shit at the fan to start WW3, the best strategy is to go neutral.

>parliamentarism is not democracy
It's bourgeois democracy. I agree that something like sortitian democracy would have much better representation and should be considered more democratic. But it's intellectually dishonest to say that bourgeois democracy has zero democratic characteristics.
>democracy has a class character
like i said bourgeois democracy

>to start an ethnic war
The US funded trained and armed fascistic paramilitary groups in Ukraine that tried to do precisely that.
And the end result seems to be that Ukraine gets carved up, you know that's not the first time where playing with ethno-nationalists had this result.

>>476237
>I think the core has shrunk and Europe ain't in it anymore
So why didn't they leave NATO then kek? Why did Scandinavians joined NATO then recently lol? Something just doesn't add up zigga kek.


>If the neocons throw enough shit at the fan to start WW3, the best strategy is to go neutral.
Sometimes you just can't be neutral zigga lol.

>It's bourgeois democracy.
Parliamentarism is not democracy, lib.

>But it's intellectually dishonest to say that bourgeois democracy has zero democratic characteristics.
Nah, it's dishonest to say parliamentarism has democratic characteristics. It has only oligarchic characteristics.

>like i said bourgeois democracy
like i said is NO DEMOCRACY

>The US funded trained and armed fascistic paramilitary groups in Ukraine that tried to do precisely that.
no, it funded them to overthrow Yanuk government

It was Russkia who started the ethnic war.

>>476237
>democratic characteristics
>more democratic
>less democratic
Not the dishonest charlatan you're arguing with, but I don't like this kind of democracy-is-measures language because it falls right into the etymological trap created by the anti-democrats from the late 18th century. A dictatorship is a dictatorship and an oligarchy is an oligarchy. Neither are democracy, and choosing your rulers is inherently not people's self-rule. Many empires and kingdoms throughout history have elected their rulers; that doesn't make their form of governance any more democratic than primogeniture.

>>476231
>I'm trying to manufacture excuses for Kiev/iyv letting the Ukro-faascists shell the Donbass with the intent of causing ethnic-displacement.
Yeah and you're not succeeding.

>elections are not democracy
when bourgeois countries abolish bourgeois democracy, like banning lots of parties and doing away with elections , that's called going open dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, that's what Marxist theorists usually consider the beginning of hard fascism.

>The US violated "proper" parliamentary politics.
CIA regime change color revolutions, are covert invasions, not minor procedural violations of political process.

>>476232
>Why do you even care
What i care about is that there are political witch-hunts against leftists. There is political repression that uses accusations of foreign interference as a pretext. As long as that persists, my default assumption is going to be that all such accusations are politically motivated smears.

>>476245
>I'm trying to manufacture excuses for Kiev/iyv letting the Ukro-faascists shell the Donbass with the intent of causing ethnic-displacement.
talking to yourself again? lol

>when bourgeois countries abolish bourgeois democracy, like banning lots of parties and doing away with elections , that's called going open dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, that's what Marxist theorists usually consider the beginning of hard fascism.
you're libpilled lol

plenty of """bourgeois democracies""" throughout history banned parties lol

>CIA regime change color revolutions, are covert invasions, not minor procedural violations of political process.
minor or major, who the fuck cares lib?

does major violation of parliamentarism gives you the right to start an ethnic conflict?

>What i care about is that there are political witch-hunts against leftists.
Maupoid is not leftist.

>>476247
>Maupoid is not leftist.
at least no more leftist than Mussolini was

>>476242
>So why didn't they leave NATO then?
I think that during the Ukraine war major fissures have formed in Nato and it looks like Turkey could potentially splitt off.

>Why did Scandinavians joined NATO then recently
They didn't ratify NATO entry with a referendum, that means they believe that the population does not support it. Polling of young men showed overwhelming opposition. So don't expect to be able to mobilize these countries for a NATO war.

>Sometimes you just can't be neutral
Lets compare what happened to different powers in the Ukraine conflict.

India went the neutral route, they got weapons from the Americans, cheap oil/gas from the Russians, and a sweet-heart deal on consumer-goods-imports from the Chinese.

Europe went the route of taking sides, they got energy shortages from absent Russian trade, a knife in the back from the Americans, and a loss of diplomatic prestige from the Chinese.

The facts are clear, taking side = punishment, staying neutral = rewards. So neutrality is in fact the only viable option.

>Nah, it's dishonest to say parliamentarism has democratic characteristics. It has only oligarchic characteristics.
Yes electoral parliamentarism tends towards oligarchy/plutocracy, its still not open dictator ship. You can't use leftist critique of bourgeoisie democracy to white-wash Ukraine banning political parties and trying to stop elections. There is a difference between bourgeois democracy and fascism.

>no, it funded them to overthrow Yanuk government
I agree the US most certainly didn't intent to sponsor ethnic-displacement, when they funded fascistic paramilitary groups in Ukraine. The US wanted to get rid of Victor Yanukovych because he didn't play privatize Ukraine with the IMF. But that doesn't change the facts. The US did fund ukro-fashos that did try to do a big ethno-crime. That raises the question, why can't the US's "foreign policy arm" to use a polite expression, try to work with more sensible people. It's the same thing in Israel, why does it have to be a horror show ?

>who started the ethnic war.
The US did when they propped up the uko-fascist paramilitary groups.

>>476244
>Not the dishonest charlatan you're arguing with, but I don't like this kind of democracy-is-measures language because it falls right into the etymological trap created by the anti-democrats from the late 18th century. A dictatorship is a dictatorship and an oligarchy is an oligarchy. Neither are democracy, and choosing your rulers is inherently not people's self-rule. Many empires and kingdoms throughout history have elected their rulers; that doesn't make their form of governance any more democratic than primogeniture.
I understand your objection and agree with it to a significant extend, however I'm contrasting bourgeois democracy, with open bourgeois dictatorship i.e. Fascism. Those are materially different, especially when it comes to the rate of people dying of non-natural causes.

>>476255
>I think that during the Ukraine war major fissures have formed in Nato and it looks like Turkey could potentially splitt off.
What is the point of talking about "ifs" when Turkey is still a NATO member?

Answer: only to cope lol.

>They didn't ratify NATO entry with a referendum, that means they believe that the population does not support it.
>So don't expect to be able to mobilize these countries for a NATO war.
Wait, you think something wouldn't happen in class society if the lower classes don't want it to happen kek?

You are literally libpilled beyond belief kek. What do you think a state is dumbfuck?

>Europe went the route of taking sides, they got energy shortages from absent Russian trade, a knife in the back from the Americans, and a loss of diplomatic prestige from the Chinese.
EU is a fucking major imperialist player dumbfuck. It has interests all over the fucking globe and obviously it thinks it can better protect them while being in NATO.

and EU is a prime example of when a side CAN'T STAY NEUTRAL, sometimes you just need to cut your losses and pick a side

>The facts are clear, taking side = punishment, staying neutral = rewards. So neutrality is in fact the only viable option.
Holy shit you are dumb.

>Yes electoral parliamentarism tends towards oligarchy/plutocracy, its still not open dictator ship. You can't use leftist critique of bourgeoisie democracy to white-wash Ukraine banning political parties and trying to stop elections.
Imagine crying for parliamentarism and calling yourself a marxist kek.

Anyway, even on your bourgeois legal grounds, Ukraine is under invasion fighting an enemy military force so ordinary parliamentary procedures do not apply.

>There is a difference between bourgeois democracy and fascism.
If we're not talking about radical fascism of the German variety, then you exaggerate the difference as the lib you are lol.

>The US wanted to get rid of Victor Yanukovych because he didn't play privatize Ukraine with the IMF.
No dumbfuck, they wanted to get rid of Yanuk because he war pro-russkie.

They couldn't give two fucks about fucking IMF.

>But that doesn't change the facts. The US did fund ukro-fashos that did try to do a big ethno-crime.
what "ethno-crime" dumbfuck? helping to overthrow pro-russkie Yanuk lol?

>why can't the US's "foreign policy arm" to use a polite expression, try to work with more sensible people.
because they needed fucking shock troopers capable of open violence lol?

It honestly astonishes me how dumb you are. Literally below 50 autism score muppet.

>The US did when they propped up the uko-fascist paramilitary groups.
You can't claim that US started an ethnic conflict by violating ukro parliamentarism, if you don't claim at the same time that violated parliamentarism gives right to Russkia to start an ethnic conflict lol.