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File: 1614691369767.jpg ( 163.01 KB , 1200x628 , ozymandias.jpg )

 No.14436

What do you think of the ending to Watchmen?
Do you agree with Ozymandias?
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 No.14437

floppa
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 No.14438

You should not agree that any of the characters where right, one of the themes of watchmen is how awful and wrongful superheroing will be facing real world ethical dilemmas.
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 No.14448

Of course not, he should’ve helped the soviets.
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 No.14451

>>14438
Sure, obviously it should have never got to that point.
But given the situation they are in by the ending, who would you agree with more?

And really the ending still has merit in that it highlights different ideologies, e.g. utilitarianism. Do you believe socialism should not be utilitarian?
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 No.14452

>>14436
>Do you agree with Ozymandias?
No. Ozymandias had the ability to avert nuclear war by using all that money to fund revolutionaries. The real threat is not the nukes but the societies that wield them. Replacing those with DotP solves that problem and a lot of the other ones that come up in the story. If he could keep what he did in the comic a secret, he could easily keep this a secret.
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 No.14453

>>14436
I think comic books are mad gay
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 No.14457

>>14451
That is something I agree with, the different character could be seen to represent different ethical school, Rorschach as deontology and Ozymandias as utilitarianism but until I read Eugene Kamenka's *Marxism and Ethics* I do not feel like having an opinion and even now I do not feel like sympathizing with any of the characters.
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 No.14458

>>14452
>Ozymandias had the ability to avert nuclear war by using all that money to fund revolutionaries
Revolutionaries where? For which conflict?
Any country could acquire nuclear weapons, or stand opposed to a revolution / socialism. Having a revolution in America needn't be the end-all.
Ozymandias' plan was one that unites the entire world in fear of another world. Funding revolutions wouldn't unite the whole world.
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 No.14459

Ozymandias is dumb. He should’ve let posadism happen and Manhattan would create quantum communism.
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 No.14462

>>14458
>Revolutionaries where?
Everywhere.
>For which conflict?
International class struggle.
>Funding revolutions wouldn't unite the whole world.
It would eventually.
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 No.14491

>>14462
This just sounds like idealistic nonsense. How many centuries are we talking before there are successful worldwide revolutions.
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 No.14494

Coronavirus didn’t unite people for shit so no
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 No.14495

>>14491
Strange, because that’s what most communist writers have supported as the best solution. Would you call Marx and idealist? Because at his time revolutions were happening left and right in Europe, thanks to the terrible working conditions of late 19th century Europe.
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 No.14498

>>14495
Obviously it's the best solution, but it's not the most realistic - or likely to occur - solution. Hence idealist.
We are 200 years after Marx's birth, thinking exactly as he did sounds short-sighted and dishonest.
There is no worldwide appetite for revolution. How can conditions change to spark the revolution - we are in a 3rd global recession in just over 20 years, and in a pandemic. If there is no successful revolution in eve one country now, how will it happen worldwide?
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 No.14566

I agree with the Comedian, the world is one big joke.
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 No.14567

>>14494
True, but unlike "cosmic squid from space", coronavirus can not be made into The Other. This is why it failed in uniting humanity
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 No.14569

>>14567
It got a lot of people to hate the Chinese.
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 No.19489

File: 1679431761007-0.png ( 775.18 KB , 1181x685 , 2w34e6d5fr76tg.png )

File: 1679431761007-1.png ( 765.18 KB , 1219x642 , 2drfyguhin.png )

>>14436
>What do you think of the ending to Watchmen?
the movie pretty much robs the comic of its criticism of american culture/politics/complexes in favor of attacking "muh human nature" culminating in the attack on major cities(Mao would be proud)

as for the comics ending, kinda was expecting for america to shit all over itself and begin WW3 since thats been the pattern

Do you agree with Ozymandias?
he did nothing wrong
>>

 No.19490

>>14438

This. None of them are right.
In the story, Ozymandias's plan works, but that's also the better ending from a storytelling perspective. Having him just be some smart (but ultimately not smart enough) megalomaniac who commits an atrocity because he's convinced himself that it will avert even bigger atrocities would be more realistic, but would suck as a conclusive ending. IRL people commit atrocities under the pretext that it will be for the greater good all the time and it regularly fails on this front.
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 No.19491

File: 1679446188832.png ( 951.26 KB , 1920x1080 , image.png )

>>19490
well the fact they were americans new yorkers at that means humanity got off pretty cheap
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 No.19492

>>19491

True.
IRL a guy like that would probably pick Guatemala.
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 No.19493

>>14438
>one of the themes of watchmen is how awful and wrongful superheroing will be facing real world ethical dilemmas.
Which is such a gay and liberal premise. It's the whole "be careful what you wish for" horse shit. If someone had the means and where with all to make things better they probably would.
Yes, I really do want a Superman to in fuck the world. I'm sure there would be a down side but to think it would just be a downward spiral is just so fucking pretentious. He falling into the same trap every creatively bankrupt artist falls into in that it's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.
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 No.19494

>>19493
*Yes, I really do want a Superman to unfuck the world.
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 No.19495

>>19493
>A comic book is too nuanced for me
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 No.19496

>>19495
>My "2 deep 4 U" deconstruction of a superhero comic actually just betrays my brainlet doomerism".
It's the equivalent of going around and telling children Santa isn't real. Oh wow, you're truly a philosopher king. While completely misunderstanding the social and emotional importance of the myth. But still thinking you're an intellect.
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 No.19497

>>19496
>words words words
All you fags have is words. That's why you never accomplish anything while always waiting for other people (men of action) to save you
>It's the equivalent of going around and telling children Santa isn't real. Oh wow, you're truly a philosopher king. While completely misunderstanding the social and emotional importance of the myth. But still thinking you're an intellect.
>My cope leftoid narrative may not be true but it's still important to me because I'm stunted and child like.
Sounds like an L for you tbh
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 No.19498

>>19497
What's wrong with wanting someone to save you. This is what I mean by the brainlet deconstruction of superhero comics.
You're like a teen that thinks he's tougher because he doesn't believe in Santa anymore. It doesn't surprise me that the author is a tankie, Kruger Dunning self assuredness is endemic among them.
Ironically superior deconstruction of Superheros have been done by the super hero comics themselves. Like Superman having to reconcile the fact that he simply can't save everyone, or "The Incredibles" exploring the possibility of everyone having super powers.
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 No.19499

>>19498
>What's wrong with wanting someone to save you
Nothing, if you're a woman or child.
>Like Superman having to reconcile the fact that he simply can't save everyone, or "The Incredibles" exploring the possibility of everyone having super powers.
Stunted. You need to grow up a bit before you start offering your half baked ideas about the way the world ought to work.
>It doesn't surprise me that the author is a tankie, Kruger Dunning self assuredness is endemic among them.
Are you new here? It's Dunning Kruger, not Kruger Dunning. And I don't even know wtf you are talking about. What author? Also, no one cares about your inner Leftoid divisions. You sound like a dramatic wormy naive faggot who lives in a world of make believe and fantasy.

Touch pussy
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 No.19501

File: 1679469834500.mp4 ( 3.9 MB , 640x334 , Alan Moore HARDtalk interv….mp4 )


>>19498
>It doesn't surprise me that the author is a tankie
anarkiddy moore is really a liberal whoore
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 No.19502

>>19499
>Nooooo my doomerism deconstruction of children's media is very mature! Women, get really wet when I talk about all the deep symbolism like "War Bad!" "Power Corrupts" and "Be careful what you wish for!"
Watchmen is about as deep as an episode of "The Twilight Zone". It's for pseuds like you that think dunking on harmless kids stuff makes you more adult somehow kek.
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 No.19503

>>19499
>Stunted. You need to grow up a bit before you start offering your half baked ideas about the way the world ought to work.
The problem with Watchmen is that it's so preachy much like you.
There's no love for the genre in this deconstruction.
People like you assume that what you have to say about something is so compelling that it can hold up an entire narrative.
But for all your smarts you cannot seem to grasp that being scolded for an entire book is not fun.
Comics aren't essays. This is why every iteration of Watchmen adaptations has fallen flat on its face.
For an example of an good entertaining deconstruction look at "Police Squad" it was a satire of police procedurals and film noir. But the difference is the writers loved those genres and could appreciate their good and their faults and what the audience actually takes away from such shows.
You can watch Police Squad without ever having once watched a cop show. Watchmen on the other hand will leave you wondering why everyone is wearing Halloween costumes in a nihilistic melodrama.
Ironically Watchman is more for comic nerd than the comics is takes down.
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 No.19504

>>19503

Ngl, have you read it?
It's not preachy and it's by the guy who wrote The Killing Joke.
Your opinions are weird.
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 No.19505

>>19503
I literally have no idea what you're talking about, but it's clear you don't fuck
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 No.19506

>>19505
YES I DO!
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 No.19507

>>19505
>If you dunk on my pretentious trash you're an incel.
>>19504
I have read it and it bored me personally but it seems like the writer is deconstructing stereotypes of superheros not superheros themselves.
Take for instance The Owl. Everyone assumes it's a take on the gritty Frank Miller Batman but that came out a few years later. It's actually a deconstruction of the pulp fiction Barman that was ALWAYS self aware and didn't try to propagandize like Moore accuses it of. The pre Miller Batman stories that were dark were grounded reality as they were inspired by film noir and again, were self aware of the limitations of a vigilante. You can see this right in Batman's subtitle of "World's Greatest Detective". Batman had to often use gully over violence to correctly persecute criminals, he was true to the "innocent until proven guilty" ethos and didn't just abuse his power like Moore claims.
Moore deconstructs strawmen, people that like Watchman really just like patting themselves on the back for uncovering that Santa is in fact not real.
Yes, people without superpowers in real life would most likely be broken people but superheros are nor normal people, they are "super". Idealized aspirational versions that speak to the earning of young people to right the wrongs in the world they see. Just because you and Moore are grumpy old men that have lost hope doesn't mean everyone has, or that your nihilism makes you an intellect.
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 No.19508

>>19504
Yes, and I never understood all the praise it got. Moore isn't consistent in so many places I don't even know where to begin.
Dr. Manhattan has god like powers and can see every possibility of time which is why he's so detached from humanity yet does highly partisan political actions such as win the Vietnam War. And he doesn't just win a war, he wins a war that we and him all know the US was destined to lose. All under Nixon? The most obvious shyster President ever?
A child could see through this political fraud but a space and time god can't?
Either make him a fallible Greek God or making him an indifferent Christian god, he can't be both.
For all the criticism of superheros they do follow some consistent moral code and work within their limitations. Superman has consistently acted against the state because "it was the right thing to do". So has Batman and other superheros.
Then Dr. Manhattan runs off to Mars like a moody teenager when he discovers he's giving his loved ones cancer.
A ruse Ozymandias plays on him even though he has no super powered intellect. Either Ozy does have super smarts, or Manhattan is not all seeing.
I really don't get why Watchmen is loved so much. The " Unbreakable " trilogy is a far superior deconstruction of superhero comics.
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 No.19509

File: 1679514808132.png ( 701.96 KB , 1191x684 , 4ed5fr6gt7hy9.png )

>>19508
>All under Nixon? The most obvious shyster President ever?
the presidency before nixon was regarded as doing no wrong and beyond criticism much like royalty. nixons resignation left it as the butt of jokes thereafter.

but yea dr.man-hater was a pretty weak and annoying character. very pussy whipped.also gave the most cringe part where after foid discovers she has a rape daddy it somehows = "turning air into gold" lmfao
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 No.19510

>>19507

Moore liked the golden age comics tho.
Your reading here just comes across wrong - Nite Owl isn't supposed to be a 1:1 to golden age Batman, the point isn't that he does everything exactly like Batman, it's that the circumstances of the world depicted do not allow for these characters to behave in a way which is morally "good." That's the concept, it's not complex, but it's not just an outright attack on previous work either.
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 No.19511

>>19508
>Either make him a fallible Greek God or making him an indifferent Christian god, he can't be both.

Yeah he can, grow an imagination.
Oh no, the man who was vaporized into omnipotence behaves in ways which defy conventional logic - that's the point. He's supposed to be kind of shit. His judgment is imperfect because it is beyond human, but he still has to act within the scope of human affairs - it's difficult to say what's best for humanity when you yourself don't see things in the way humans typically do, and it's difficult to do what's best for humanity when you still have human attachments and certain courses of action could destroy those.

Ozy not having superhuman intellect is akin to Batman not having superhuman intellect. IE, they both do but it's just not said outright. Just like Brock Samson, Tarzan, and Walter from The Mask are all supposedly not super strong, they're "peak human."
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 No.19512

>>19511
>Yeah he can, grow an imagination.
Oh no, the man who was vaporized into omnipotence behaves in ways which defy conventional logic - that's the point.
This has come to be known in the entertainment business as a "Mystery Box", and it's rightfully derided as bullshit.
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 No.19513

>>19511
>Yeah he can, grow an imagination.
>Oh no, the man who was vaporized into omnipotence behaves in ways which defy conventional logic - that's the point.
This has come to be known in the entertainment business as a "Mystery Box", and it's rightfully derided as bullshit.
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 No.19514

>>19511
>His judgment is imperfect because it is beyond human,
His actions are that of a mopey self centered teen.
>but he still has to act within the scope of human affairs -
Lol, why?
>it's difficult to say what's best for humanity when you yourself don't see things in the way humans typically do,
Yeah I get that, but he makes bungling decisions that even a first year polysci major wouldn't make. All while have the power to see every fucking conspiracy, secret, and cover up on earth?!
>and it's difficult to do what's best for humanity when you still have human attachments and certain courses of action could destroy those.
He wins the Vietnam war even though the US' lose didn't lead to any existential threat.
Moore wanted to bring Superheros into the real world so he inserted real life politics. But that would require Moore to be an expert on politics which he clearly is not.
Someone earlier said he's an anarchist and boy can I believe it. It's that same self assured smugness vibe a lot of them have because they think they can divinate all politics because they read the Bread Book once.
"US Bad!" Yes US Bad…uhhh is that all you have to say?
I'm not even sure who Rorschach is a satire of. That kind of unhinged Bircher Society shit had NEVER been in comics, not even close. Like I said he's attacking strawmen and not even doing it in an interesting way.
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 No.19517

One of the few critics of "The Watchmen". Basically she echos what I've always felt. It's pretentious, boring and fatalist. I had no idea that it was colored and drawn ugly on purpose. I always assumed that was just do to the limitations of the publisher.
https://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2012/09/why-i-hate-watchmen/
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 No.19518

Another critic of Watchmen
>The secret is that Watchmen is like Proust only in the sense that it isn't actually that hard to get, it just takes a fair amount of effort to get from the first page to the last.
https://comicsforserious.blogspot.com/2009/03/rick-veitchs-maximortal.html?m=1
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 No.19519

>The elephant in the room, as it were, when dealing with Watchmen and its fans is its ostensible intellectual component. When someone mentions this aspect of Moore's book, however, all they are really saying that it is difficult to read–in other words, it is boring. Don't get me wrong, I have read Proust and Ulysses–twice, as a matter of fact–so I do not have a problem with difficult literature per se. The problem with Watchmen is that it is difficult for the sake of being difficult–its abstruseness is arbitrary and a serious obstacle to the appreciation of the book
https://comicsforserious.blogspot.com/2009/03/doom-patrol-is-still-better-than.html?m=1
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 No.19520

>>19517
>so devoted to "stop liking what I don't like" that he appeals to authority
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 No.19521

>>19514
>His actions are that of a mopey self centered teen.
Meet enough people and you'll realize a lot of people's act like this. Also, what, you want him to be Spock? Why not just watch Star Trek?
>Lol, why?
Because he isn't fully "God," he's still attached to people around him. The best course of action might not be what benefits them.
>Yeah I get that, but he makes bungling decisions that even a first year polysci major wouldn't make. All while have the power to see every fucking conspiracy, secret, and cover up on earth?!
Can he? Technically, I guess.
>He wins the Vietnam war even though the US' lose didn't lead to any existential threat.
Yeah, but the American soldiers who lost in Vietnam also fought despite Vietnam posing any serious existential threat. The point is that he has a foot in the human world, he is operating for the American state, and this highlights that. Why would any superhero fight loyally for America?
Why did Shazam fight in the Korean war?
http://www.theworldsmightiestmortal.com/2017/11/introducing-red-crusher.html
I know it's different, I know Captain Marvel is technically like a 10-year-old boy, but consider for a moment that this detail is stupid & he's powerful enough that he doesn't really need to fight in some dumb war for foreign influence. Why would a 10-year-old-boy hosting an ancient superpowered wizard care? Isn't that weird?

Yes! Of course it's weird! And if you think about it, it's weird that yr Supermans and The Heaps would fight in WWII as well. The Heap is literally a mass of mud and vegetable matter. Superman could stop the war entirely, but instead he was cranking out "slap a Jap" posters.
These aren't critiques. If they spent all their time trying to never write any conceivable contradiction, it would be less interesting. But yes, Dr. Manhattan does have superhuman perception, he is insanely powerful, and he still does the dirtywork of the American state even though he technically shouldn't have to, even though the dirtywork depicted here is one of the unpopular wars.
>Someone earlier said he's an anarchist and boy can I believe it. It's that same self assured smugness vibe a lot of them have because they think they can divinate all politics because they read the Bread Book once.
You come across as a lot smugger than him, and you don't even have anything to be smug about as far as I can tell.
>I'm not even sure who Rorschach is a satire of.
Dude, you're complaining about Alan Moore being disrespectful towards comics or whatever you think he's doing, and you don't even know who The Question is? Come on!
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 No.19522

>>19521
>Vietnam *not* posing any serious existential threat.
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 No.19523

>>19520
>Explains the reasoning of a critic.
>Appeal to authority
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 No.19524

File: 1679691779876.png ( 2.22 MB , 1861x936 , 1679307498597556.png )

>>19521
>existential threat.
Yeah, but the American soldiers who lost in Vietnam also fought despite Vietnam posing any serious existential threat. The point is that he has a foot in the human world, he is operating for the American state, and this highlights that.
This is the point, he acts like a fucking midwit burger except he's invincible now. Other than acting cold what fucking effect did being privy to every fucking secret of the universe have on Dr. Manhattan?
This is why Greek and Christian Gods are so timeless. They don't have these yawning gaps in their own logic.
I get that sacrificing a a few 100 thousand people might be justified to prevent a nuclear war that kills billions but the Vietnam War was a farcical war that MILLIONS OF PEOPLE KNEW AT THE TIME.
Regular comics avoid these problems by having their own made up politics.
One critic I linked said that Moore has a nostalgia for Nixon and even Reagan to an extent. This rings true and is the only explanation for Moore's confounding choices for his alternative history.
Many Anarchists harbor have this reactionary sympathy for fascists. And it's in Moore's comics. They're like Pit Mommies that think prejudice against their dangerous dogs are allegories for prosecution of marginalized people.
I agree with Moore's subtext that it's silly to think that super hero's with the power to shape society would be good and ethical because, well just because! But then he makes equally absurd claims that superheroes would all be irredeemable asswipes because society mmaaaaaaan.
>>

 No.19525

File: 1679692027064.png ( 2.22 MB , 1861x936 , 1679307498597556.png )

>>19521
>Yeah, but the American soldiers who lost in Vietnam also fought despite Vietnam posing any serious existential threat. The point is that he has a foot in the human world, he is operating for the American state, and this highlights that.
This is the point, he acts like a fucking midwit burger except he's invincible now. Other than acting cold what fucking effect did being privy to every fucking secret of the universe have on Dr. Manhattan?
This is why Greek and Christian Gods are so timeless. They don't have these yawning gaps in their own logic.
I get that sacrificing a a few 100 thousand people might be justified to prevent a nuclear war that kills billions but the Vietnam War was a farcical war that MILLIONS OF PEOPLE KNEW AT THE TIME.
Regular comics avoid these problems by having their own made up politics.
One critic I linked said that Moore has a nostalgia for Nixon and even Reagan to an extent. This rings true and is the only explanation for Moore's confounding choices for his alternative history.
Many Anarchists harbor have this reactionary sympathy for fascists. And it's in Moore's comics. They're like Pit Mommies that think prejudice against their dangerous dogs are allegories for prosecution of marginalized people.
I agree with Moore's subtext that it's silly to think that super hero's with the power to shape society would be good and ethical because, well just because! But then he makes equally absurd claims that superheroes would all be irredeemable asswipes because society mmaaaaaaan. There's zero subtlety or complexity to his deconstruction.
>>

 No.19526

>>19521
>Dude, you're complaining about Alan Moore being disrespectful towards comics or whatever you think he's doing, and you don't even know who The Question is? Come on!
The Question is an obscure as fuck character, give me a break.

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