No.739[View All]
I though about starting this thread in /hobby/, but considering I'm not interested in talking about the merits of the game-itself, and rather to discuss the specific dilemma of factions, I thought I'd get a more focused discussion here.
The Wildcard ending notwithstanding, there are principally three different factions in the game you can side with: Caesar's Legion, New California Republic, and Mr. House. To begin, Caesar's Legion is a fascist power lead by a historical materialist (even though the writers somewhat misrepresent Hegel in their dialogue about the dialectic, the general theme is maintained) most players misunderstand Caesar as just a LARPer rather than someone who is genuinely trying to restart history. His Legion, is admittedly a hegemonic autocracy that Caesar intends to use to subjugate humanity under one banner, so that their collective progress would be accelerated. It's entirely possible to interpret Caesar as just history's janitor trying to send humanity back through the motions and antiquity to try and reach a better result than rushing back to the "good ol' days" like the NCR, rather than someone who takes pleasure in creating a slave society that is an objectively malignant entity.
The NCR is presented as the return of the old Bourgeois Dictatorship of the US, their government is a corrupt expansionist bureaucracy that can only adequately administrate war, meanwhile the actual body of the legislation itself has a lineage of benevolent autocrats (tandy) and is ruled by the interest of the "brahmin barons" (kulaks), this is a critique that Caesar presents in his analysis of the NCR (which happens to sound out-of-context Marxian). Caesar correctly identifies the NCR as a reincarnation of the failed Bourgeois state that brought about the very predicament of the wasteland, and seeks to use them as his component in creating a society apt enough to the material conditions of the wasteland.
The strangest character in this dynamic is Mr. House, if the NCR is a light veil for a Bourg dictatorship, then Mr. House is an open window, making no illusions to the player about his proposed autocratic status and ex-Bourg origin. Since the wasteland cannot be considered Capitalist (as a true economic analysis of the Fallout universe would lack too many necessary factors to be accurate) we have to assume that the wastes can be best surmised as a scavenger-economy wherein the most valuable resource is electricity and armaments, the wasteland does still have capitalistic elements (the barons of the NCR being a good example, as well as Crimson Caravan and Gunrunners) but lacks the infrastructure to maintain a conventionally capitalist society (and thereby is also incapable of creating a socialist society unless material conditions change).
I'd propose that due to this, the best choice for a Marxist in the wasteland is to side with whichever faction has the best capacity to create industry in the wasteland. All the factions in the maingame (and characters in the DLC hint at this theme, but would take to long to discuss) are representations of differing ideological states: the NCR being a bourgeois dictatorship under the farce of democracy, the Legion being a fascist army with the goals (at least the goals of Caesar) of restarting humanity's cultural progress, and Mr. House who breaks the mold as an autocratic Technocrat. You might refer to House as the supreme corporatist, but he's likely the only one possessing of the ability to either industrialize the wasteland or to simply leave Earth behind for Mars, despite being the most comically capitalist entity in Fallout (a series that from inception was an inherent critique of Nationalist Capitalism), House is likely the best choice for a principled Marxist, the NCR would lead humanity into a similar state of global capitalism, it too perhaps has the capacity to industrialize the wastes like Mr. House (and in face House intends to use them largely for a similar purpose) but Mr. House presents perhaps and easier path, because House is a planned economist, regardless of all the old-world business aesthetic, House is someone who would be a literal computer-god who plans the economy. House claims to be an objective ruler with a more important grand vision than say the short-term emulators of the NCR, who despite their uses to him, House rejects as the planners of the economy (potentially because he recognizes like Caesar, their inherent contradictions). In any event of House winning, the inevitable desire of the Marxist Courier would be to have him killed or deposed, I left out Yesman in this little essay because I thought that would be to filled with assumptions to really consider, because of course the obvious answer would be "courier and yes man takes over and the Comrade Courier uses Yesman to create an epic planned economy, Communism 100." A ending which to me seems really silly to rationalize in the context of the setting, to be clear, I don't think F:NV has any Marxist faction or even a Marxian theme, it's themes are focused around nostalgic ideology and the Gnostic need to either destroy the past or worship it. To the end of advancing the Fallout Universe to the next stage of history, I think Mr. House is the only one who even has the capacity to achieve it, even if he's a terrifying computer God who could only be removed by his "employees" in the most idealized scenario.
As Benny puts it: "Mr House hides Vegas under his skirt when the bombs drop so it's his? forever?" not that Benny is a proletarian revolutionary or anything, but a Mr. House ending would require that House be willing to take on proteges or somehow put himself in a position to be removed, but since that's a question more of game mechanics than narrative, I'll ignore it. Am I wrong? Who do you think a Marxist should choose?
71 posts and 16 image replies omitted. Click reply to view.>>
No.1680
>>802>Communists either side with the NCR; which at best is a social democracy that respects the equality of all its citizens, and offers an adequate social safety net.The NCR is a feudal state run by literal barons always risking a possible famine. Also they basically attempted to genocide the Khans.
>Another option would be to pursue an Independent New Vegas - the New Vegas Commune, if you will, that gradually socializes industry and agriculture based on syndicalization of all businesses and co-operativization of agriculture.Would immediately get destroyed by a larger faction.
>The Legion is a reactionary, proto-fascist dictatorship that enslaves and massacres other races. Any Communist government would to immediately make a pact with anyone to eliminate them immediately.They're not any more genocidal than the NCR (see: Bitter Springs massacre) and one could argue the authoritarianism is necessary to build up industry.
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No.1715
>>1680Are you forgetting that the New Vegas Commune has the securitron army as well as the combined forces of whatever factions you joined forces with? Even if you choose to not upgrade the securitrons for no reason, you still have an army of powerful, heavily-armored robot soldiers as well as air support from the Boomers as well as support on the ground from the Kings and other groups. Both the NCR and Legion would outnumber the Commune's forces but it's unlikely that either would try invading given how fierce and obstinate the resistance would be.
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No.1718
A principled Marxist would play a better game.
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No.1720
>>1680no dude, it's a literal slave run society, that's way more ancient than what ever the NCR is doing
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No.1724
All you pussies fail to realize that Mr House is the single most dialectical choice here. His victory, from all that we hear, would restart humanity. Not just a shitty society that is barely surviving and struggling, but a modern, and even a space traveling civilization. Would it be brutal in some regards? Yes, it would basically be modern capitalism, however it is very idealist to expect for a better, socialist future to emerge from the barely industrial (and in most cases not even that).
Also the game, while well made, has dogshit factions and its really just the case of picking which is least shit:
>Legion
A bunch of slaver larpers following a dying leader. His vision is pretty bad, but things will only get worse with his death
>NCR
A meh imperialist state. Probably will get the region over time back under to barely-prewar conditions. Their capitalist system doesn't make them
>Free Vegas
At absolute best it's an ancom commune. And? How is that going to help anyone outside Vegas? And more likely they would just be a shitshow of many infighting gangs, like the Vegas before House gets the chip, just without House.
>House
Same as NCR, but can transform the entire setting and achieve far better results than the NCR would.
To me he is quite an obvious choice.
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No.1725
>>1724go lick elon musks boot, I'll take an anrcho commune over any space colonialists
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No.1760
>>1725Without the proper material conditions, your anacho commune is destined to fail and die of hunger. Read Marx
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No.1762
>>1679Reminder that Tijuana is at a higher latitude than half of Texas
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No.1778
>>1724i agree but i disagree regarding the legion, i feel like you haven't actually read the rest of the posts in this thread
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No.1781
>>1724An "anarcho-commune" with AI controlled robotic cops running around
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No.1783
>>1760well it didn't happen in game so fuck you!
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No.1827
>>1816You do realize that House ending is just NCR+ ending, right? The space thing is only a cherry on top. His real goal is to harness the existing capitalist elements of the NCR in order to, well, quite literally develop the productive forces:
>The city's economy is a blast furnace in which can be forged the steel of a new rail line, running straight to a new horizon. What is the NCR? A society of people desperate to experience comfort, ease, luxury… A society of customers. With all that money pouring in? Give me 20 years, and I'll reignite the high technology development sectors.In the end, his path would end up just like the NCR one, just with far more developed society, not one that is barely at industrial levels. Eventually the chance for socialism to arise within the NCR is far higher under better material conditions, and especially once more advanced technology is utilized. Reminder that pre-war Fallout setting didn't yet have the transistor. With House in charge of Vegas, the possibility for technological development might fill this hole, allowing for the computational power needed for socialism. And, as much of a meme the space shit is, it would definitely help long term with resources. All of this would likely take NCR alone centuries to achieve.
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No.1949
>>771isn't the intelligence hit he has because of his brain tumor
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No.1968
UNCRITICAL SUPPORT FOR OUR KHAN COMRADES !!!
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No.1970
>>1827ROBERT HOUSE IS A DENGIST AGENT OF THE PRC
HE IS GOING TO DEVELOVEP THE NCR TO BRING SOCIALISM WITH CALIFORNIAN CHARACTERISTICS
SOCIALISM BY 2300
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No.1981
Do the old fallouts go into detail on how China was organized politically? were they actual commies or dengists?
there was no mention of them in new vegas and 3 and 4 they're just the ebil red gommies
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No.1999
>>1981I don't remember there being any significant times China was mentioned in the first two, and the wiki itself says that it's unknown if it was still Maoist at the time the bombs fell or not.
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No.2012
>>1724>>1827On the other hand, House has been in control for close to a decade, and even the so-called luxury of the strip consists mostly of jury-rigged scrap and scavenge. If he has a "plan" to get "high tech" running withing 20 more years, you'd expect he'd already have some kind of workshops or light industry prepared.
Among the Soviet five-year plans, the hardest one was the first: The process of building the industry and infrastructure which'll build industry and infrastructure. You must have something to get something, and that takes time.
If Vegas is currently relying on scavenging and repurposed scrap, it most definitely doesn't have the basics of maintaining itself, not to even mention the tools that House's robot army requires for its upkeep. Once the NCR and the Legion have been driven out of the Mojave, a clock is ticking and resources bleeding. Without the right tools, manufacturing, know-how, and equipment, his small empire will face attrition. And considering how lackluster his preparations have been in the past seven years on that front, "twenty years" may be both an overly optimistic goal
and far too late.
Not to even mention he basically sat on his ass for 126 years after regaining consciousness, doing practically speaking nothing.
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No.2065
>>2012tbf The Strip does look like shit because of time limitations. It was supposed to be like 10x bigger I think.
>>1999The dialogue with the Chinese captain in FO4 seems to imply that at least they were not capitalist like in USA
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No.2105
>>739Independent Vegas with all the gangs and House destroyed while siding with the Followers of the Apocalypse would have the greatest potential for a New Vegas Commune. The Followers are undoubtedly anarchists and since they were the ones who introduced Cesar to Hegel they probably have hella Marxist theory
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No.2134
>>2105I always thought that too, but it makes sense that in the independent ending the Followers would be overwhelmed when you look at the huge problems Vegas has plus how tiny they are. So what do you do, maintain the casinos for caps to prop them up, build up mutual aid networks and the lightest industry possible? Sure, you won't have the Omerta or White Glove Society but you're still sucking people from all over the NCR dry for one city. You shut down the casinos, then the city becomes isolated with no new resources coming in.
I really don't see anything but NCR annexation providing opportunities for a brighter future, if not only to give the Followers time to rebuild.
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No.2140
>>2134Minor point, but the Good Karma ending for Old World Blues mentions how you leak beneficial tech into the Mojave from time to time. That aside, I do find it kinda odd how an Indy Vegas gets fucked even if you literally kill every fucker that could cause trouble in the future for its citizens (Powder Gangers, Fiends the BoS). Like, I can, for example, understand Novac due to its ending and proximity to a Legion camp, but still it is largely the NCR who takes the hit for you.
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No.2141
>>2134>You shut down the casinos, then the city becomes isolated with no new resources coming in.Control of the Hoover Dam (and Helios) provides electricity and water. The Followers already make implants, and with additional capital and support from Big MT could move their cybernetics work forward.
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No.2142
>>2140You're right, I forgot about it but it does change things. I do think Big MT is too much of a magic wand though and prefer to be a bit more realistic for this.
Even if you killed the problem groups, more could easily reform or move in in the time it takes to get real governance and defense setup. A lot of them would even come from desperate locals, since the NCR military caps coming in would plummet right away
>>2141Nearly infinite electricity and water are wonderful for their situation, but there's only a limited amount of electronics, scrap metals, prewar meds etc. in the area which are probably gonna run out after a couple centuries of prospectors and scavengers picking it dry. You can't make implants out of sand and water, and New Vegas is pretty resource poor when you look at the kind of world and economy they live in. Big MT is too unrealistically silly to even consider, but if we're going to consider it the Courier shepherded the technology to leak into the wastes due to the danger of exposing Big MT and its power so it's not an option. Plus I don't believe those lunatics could keep up with the logistical challenge of resupplying New Vegas, there's a lot more involved in that than throwing lobotomites and roboscorpions at each other.
I just can't see any way out for New Vegas as much as I want to
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No.2143
>>2142>You're right, I forgot about it but it does change things. I do think Big MT is too much of a magic wand though and prefer to be a bit more realistic for this.I understand, and tbh the throw-away line about how the Think Tank scrubbed away your ability to actually tell people about the Big MT was put there to put a cap on excesses.
As to the rest, my "confusion" mostly arise from the ending slides, which go on about how every raider group met their ends at your hands, only to still lead to a mess, without at least an explanation (i.e. in the other faction endings like NCR, we got told how Primm became prosperous through annexation, to name a thing). Could have been like "without a big name army like NCR or Legion around to intimidate them, punching bags like the Jackals reemerge to use the situation to their advantage", or something else. Taking the slides at it face value, they seem kinda contradictory.
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No.2147
>>2143I'm think you touched on the other half of what the problem is, the Securitrons are just too robotic to properly maintain order in the wasteland compared to the NCR and Legion. I mean I could see Yes Man relaying issues to the Courier that need a human touch, like the Courier could be the central node of a wider mutual aid network but again time and all that.
I think it's probably a combination of liberal writers thinking the only safe way forward is recreate the old world with the NCR, plus time and budget constraints. I remember reading they were much more ambitious about what they wanted to do when development started
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No.2148
>>2147Or, now that I think about it, that Follower who helped create Yes Man could probably tweak him to have a backbone and will to move him closer to Cybersyn with robot appendages. Basically House but a robot communist, which would smooth things over
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No.2985
>>2984>>2982reminder that ceaser is how the libertarian devs saw Stalin and the soviets. Red, Hegel, slavery.
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No.3049
>>763>Although joining the Legion makes the game way harder as you make more enemies with the NCR in New Vegas so it kinda makes me feel that the devs didn't want noob players to pick the Legion has it leads to a more difficult experienceThe real reason was that they didn't have time to actually add all of the Legion content they had planned so they just left it heavily lopsided towards NCR territory which naturally makes the game harder if you choose Legion.
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No.3156
Has Jason Unruhe ever said which faction he supported?
I'm interested in his opinion
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No.3404
>>1999China is barely mentioned in Fallout 1 and 2 at all, I seem to recall finding out more about the soviet union through the tiny amount of info you can glean from Natalia's blurb at the character select screen in FO1 than you do about China over the entirety of both games
>>2985Per the devs themselves he is based off of people like Charles Taylor, Timur leng and a few different Crusaders more than any communist
>RedBorrowed from school boy level understanding of Roman history, design wise makes the legion visually distinctive and makes them contrast the drab, turn of the 20th century looking NCR and random cowboy people in the Mojave
>SlaveryThe legion deliberately eschews modern technology and mechanisation in favour of building an artificial, syncretic state based on a half remembered and heavily debased knowledge of the Roman Empire adapted for the wasteland, they need slave labour both as a means of breaking down and re-integrating conquered people into the amorphous, constructed entity they are building and to replace the efficiency loss of not using machines, the legion is essentially an army in need of a state that its trying to make itself, it doesn't have the economic or infrastructural development, quite deliberately so, to advance past a slave economy
>HegelHe sees the legion and the NCR in these terms, he doesn't feel like Caesar and the Legion doesn't feel like an empire, flagstaff doesn't feel like Rome etc. he needs a Carthage, which will be the NCR, and a proper Rome, which will be vegas, before his new entity will actually be realised he must destroy its antagonist to be able to complete the transition from group of bandits to fledging state, thesis, antithesis, synthesis he says as much in game (also plays into the Charles Taylor inspiration in that he's a relatively educated man running a shitshow kingdom that was previously relatively isolated, letting his own weird views on thing and personal obsessions influence the course of his entire kingdom)
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No.3657
I think the best thing about FNV is if you sit back and really think about it even in the most positive ending for the NCR its still completely fucked, as its so incredibly corrupt and inefficient already to be losing a war to a group of illiterate bandits that think self loading weapons are dangerously high tech and only let their most elite of elite units have them when the NCR itself gives almost every soldier an AR15, a full uniform, a steel helmet and webbing, and has railways, at least a Handful of attack aircraft that are like HIND D's on steroids (which given that they continue to operate and maintain would imply they at least have the knowledge to produce lower tech fixed wing aircraft) and fleets of trucks, all while having a larger, more literate, more productive population than the legion does and nothing the courier does in the mojave really does anything to change that other than maybe bumping up the careers of a few more proficient military officers and helping the followers out a bit with some minor stuff
The eventual desperate cash grab FNV sequel should be the NCR Civil war brought on by rampant corruption
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No.4442
>communism can only be achieved through following a Fascist slave owning society
You're beginning to scare me
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No.4493
NCR has more developed productive forces, more technology and more trade. Undoubtedly the Marxist choice, Caesar is a retard who will delay any chance of progress, even if the NCR is bad.
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No.4494
>>4493The best move would be pitting NCR against the Legion and hoping they both implode actually. NCR is corrupt but has a lot of manpower and a more developed society so they could last a long time even if the Legion gradually wins militarily. Legion has a much less developed economy so could get hit by a famine or something and lose way more than the NCR would. Also a much less developed military so can only really win in ambushes.
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No.4496
>>4493>>4494And anyone who says House is a retard. He's a literal neo-feudalist with a robot army.
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No.4512
>>4442It's called historical materialism
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No.6138
This is the most leftist thread on the board IMO
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No.6158
>What faction would a principled Marxist side with in Fallout: New Vegas?
whatever the character you're roleplaying as would join
you know that's what wrpgs are, right?
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No.6566
What do you guy think of New Canaan? To me they seem like a settler colony but without the imperialism and racism somehow. The only thing they care to spread is Mormonism and medical knowledge. They're still pretty paternalistic, both Joshua Graham and Daniel call the Sorrows childlike or naive and superstitious. It's weird for sure.